The Low Down On Port And Polishing

[FireHead]

I am going to agree with 909. I have ported many two strokes and four strokes. There is no such thing as an amateur porter. You need to know what you are doing and knowing what you are doing comes from doing all of the math and planning before you get out the files and die grinders.

 

Someone finally sent me a set of Race Logic templates and I am not going to use them. They do not seem to be specifically for any type of riding. I certainly don't want to trust templates that I do not know how they were created.

 

If you want to get started on port work, then go find someone to mentor you. Just going at it and practicing will not give you the best results.

 

[Nighty]

will not give you the best results.

 

ofcourse not, thats why my name isnt passionre

 

amateur porter == learning alot + gaining some power.

 

if you read lots and understand the 2 stroke stuff then there is little chance you totaly fuckup you cilinders, if you use the right tools.

 

i say you are right aswell, i cant obtain best results with my knowledge and tools.

 

if your not going to use the templates or after you are done with them id be willing to buy them from you.

 

id like to do some math on those.

 

(if you would be willing to make a portmap then that would be super cool)

[909]

if you read lots and understand the 2 stroke stuff then there is little chance you totaly fuckup you cilinders, if you use the right tools.

 

i say you are right aswell, i cant obtain best results with my knowledge and tools.

This is both incorrect and correct at the same time. Hopefully you guys know i'm just trying to shed some light on the subject that to some remains a big mystery or secret. I don't do secrets but then again there is nothing I can type that will transfer my experience to others.

 

Yes, you can totally fux up your cylinders even reading and understanding. There are some serious variables that can really throw a wrench into things. Big for instance is stroking the motor. So now you decide to throw a 4mm crank in but you raised the exhaust in your process of home porting. Now what??

 

Here is the best advice I could give anyone of you reading this and i'll step off my soap box. Before you spend anything , time, tools, etc.. on the port templates think about this. You will probably gain just as much through bolt on horse power and "blueprinting" the cylinders than spending the money to change the port timing on a stock bike. You can bluprint the ports by removing small amounts of material that is left there by the factory casting process. You will need special bits to cut the iron sleeves and this will be the most time consuming process to do. This is also where your port timing changes happen. The rest of it is more flow changes. Like I said, if you want to do the job RIGHT then you will need the mentioned equipment and some time and skills. If you want to practice like that then have some extra cylinders on hand. If you think you're going to practice without the proper tools then what exactly are you practicing? If you don't have the coin to get the tools then how will you know if what you're doing is working or not? You need to dyno the thing to see what gains/losses actually happen unless you're running the engine through the software. Right now I have 2 guys that come over to the shop every night to learn this stuff. They help out around the shop whenever they can and in return we work on their bikes at night. They don't ask for money and nor do I since we all help each other out. These guys will have a nice ported engine when they're done and they are able to trade out a little sweat for the use of the tools, software, and mentoring. You may have a local shop in the area that is willing to do the same if you ask. Best of all is that THEY are doing the work to their own cylinders, just like the definition that Nighty said "amateur porter == learning alot + gaining some power."

[SANDSTAR]

quote (909 @ June 28 2004 8:19 am)

[ Also all the talk about untapped horsepower is all a bunch of marketing crap. The horse power is all good as long as it's where you need it to be for the particular riding you do, your bike setup, your weight, etc... What good is 70 HP to a woods rider if that measurement is at 12,000 RPM??? Reality is that this rider will probably never have enough room to rev out to peak and actually lost bottom and mid compared to stock. The "secret" to porting is not all porting at all.]

 

Give me a friggin break. You ever hear of Glamis? I would not chose a Banshee for "woods riding". But for those that do, matching the sleeves to the casting and cleaning up all the "boogers" and "seams" will get you better power. Porting works. You don't have to go overboard the first time, but it can help ANY type of riding.

If someone wants to know and discuss porting with people that are not afraid to see whats inside their motors, and to then improve upon the obvious mistakes inside, and to finally learn why the Banshee behaves the way it does, and to mold the power to suit their particular needs, why would you want to discourage that?

You don't need to be a scientist to get 8-12 hp out of the Sport port templates. I am not trying to sell anyone on those damn templates. All I'm saying is that they worked for me. They worked real good and it is the single best mod I have done to my Banshee because I did it. No one else.

 

It is untapped power, and for you to say otherwise makes you a liar.

Edited June 29, 2004 by SANDSTAR

[909]

Sandstar,

 

I'm not real sure where you got the impression that I was attacking you or saying that there is no "untapped power" in the existing port timing/dimensions. I am also not trying to discourage people going in and doing their own home grown porting. The subject of this thread says it all so I am trying to educate those not in the know on what it's all about. I'm also not saying that the template kits are going to cause a loss of power, I have never used them, seen them, measured them. Maybe the changes worked for you and you're happy with the output. We don't need to go into discussion of your particular application and your satisfaction or dissatisfaction with them. That isn't in the subject of this thread. Without knowing what if any timing changes occur using them, it's not fair for you or anyone else to recommend them to everyone. You ride dunes, I do have customers that ride shees in woods as well as MX, TT, Road racing, desert, etc... and I would never tell all of them that the same setup will work best for all uses.

 

Before the big debate gets off track, go back to the first few posts and re-read them, the original post was asking about specifics as to where to move the transfers. Later he states he wants to increase the torque. None of these statements has anything to do with the blueprinting process (removing the casting flash from the ports), it all has to do with proper port timing and resizing. Both of these processes require the proper tools. You will not be able to change transfer timing without the 90 degree tool and the proper bits to cut the sleeve. The sport port templates do not include these tools with them. This means the purchase of tools to do it right. Where you move those ports can be figured out using math computations that are free to all but require alot of measuring and input to give you the desired result. You don't need to be a scientist to figure it out, just need some direction and information. Or, someone like myself can compute the timing, you scribe the cylinders and have at it. I also found out that Eric Gorr has practice cylinders available for $15 each that have damage beyond repair but could be used to practice porting.

 

The conclusion is this. If you're looking to free up some breathing room in your cylinders and do it yourself, by all means have at it and clean up the obvious problems that you and your tools are capable of doing. Don't go beyond your knowledge, skills, and tools and guess at major changes. The results more often than not will be undesireable. If you want to make a major change, increased horse power, change the peak HP to a different RPM, etc.. You should consult with a pro that has the tools and knowledge to point you in the right direction.

 

Don't forget that you can lower the peak HP range and increase the effective stroke by simply cutting the cylinder base. MX and woods guys, this can be the way to go with a simple port clean up, cheap and easy.

[SANDSTAR]

909,

 

Read the title of the thread. He wants to know if it can be a DIY project. I say yes. I had my bike dyno tuned before the porting, and dyno tuned after I did my own porting. I am not a "pro porter". I did not have $1200 tools or $530 software. If you need that stuff to get the job done, go for it.

 

I am here to say I gained 13 hp by porting my bike myself. I gained more from the porting than I gained from aftermarket pipes.

 

You must make a living porting bikes. You have every reason to put forth the idea that porting is a "science"

By chance you wouldn't be protecting your source of income would you?

 

One things for sure, You and every other "pro" out there aren't running software on every set of jugs that comes in. The three hun you all charge pays for Jose and a bunch of dremmel bits to hog 'em out just like the weekend warrior. I spent my three hun on a bore job and superlites. I've seen Trinity work. It looked like someone was stoned when they ported those things.

 

The race logic templates are already "computated" and sized for a trouble-free operation. No need to worry about those things.

 

 

 

If you want more power and you have a modest budget, DIY. You will be suprised how well it works.

[banshee04le]

I think you are both right. I agree that the template diy port job would

extract some power, but why not do it right the first time. I mean $100

for some templates or whatever...ive never seen them and then $25 worth

of dremel bits, sanding drums etc... and then your time and labor. Sure you

can say you did it yourself but you are not going to realize the gains that a

true professional with the proper tools can achieve. For example, here are

a couple of pics of the cylinders I just got back from Ritter Racing in St. Jacob, IL

There is an art as well as a science. The templates may take care of some of

the science, but there is no way that a do it your selfer is going to even come

close to achieveing finished results like this without the proper ($1200) tools

and EXPERIENCE.

[squish]

want to see a mirror exhaust. never get build up on this.

[FireHead]

The craftsmanship on that port job is outstanding.

 

[squish]

Thanks did it myself. After porting the exhaust I used 120 grit cartridge rolls. Wet sanded with 220 then used scotch brite wheels. Then used felt wheels with rouge. Got to be careful with heat build up with the felt. The aluminum starts to lap on itself.

[squish]

here is a blaster I did.

[Nighty]

WOW nice work there!

[squish]

Thanks

[squish]

another blaster pic

[mccarty7]

with all this porting and horsepower gain, are u going to get your case ported too? since it is all taken apart, u might as well go for it. some real hosrpower gain there.

 

Got my banshee on a p-3 bore, and full porting by Brian from Richard's ATV in Phoenix. He definatly knows his stuff. Dyno'd at 74 horse @ D&M's machine.

 

Just saying it is a good idea since it is all torn down and all. Cheers