trickedcarbine Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 UPDATE: This thread needs to be read from page one. Slingshot tuning: The sling shots are cool in their own way, but in my opinion they are more for trail/play bikes until someone comes up with an actual quick change cover that allows fast track side adjustments. I chose to run the Slingshot due to its increased rotating mass which really helps with crank momentum out of turns for flat track. They are pretty adjustable but you have to be creative and patient. My newest trick has been finding proper sized balls that are made from different materials for different weights. So far I have found aluminum, zinc, steel, and ceramic. The ceramic sketch me out and I worry about them breaking down and releasing residue throughout the clutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfrjag Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 i agree with the slingshot issue, i run one on my cub and its a bit of a pain to change the balls or springs. i need to turn the bike on its side and remove the entire cover to do anything with it. also the unit is pretty heavy with the outer plate being a solid peice of steel, i thought of trying to lighten it but i dont know if it would cause problems or not. anything that spins I am afraid to mess with since it could be catostrophic if it fails in motion. the different weights of balls is a good idea as well but i havent gotten into that fine of tunning. im racing on dirt/sand and hope i dont need to get into that fine of tunning with it. removing or adding 2 at a time seems to be working ok for me i guess. track conditions can change faster than I change my clutch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 My newest trick has been finding proper sized balls that are made from different materials for different weights. So far I have found aluminum, zinc, steel, and ceramic. The ceramic sketch me out and I worry about them breaking down and releasing residue throughout the clutch We have ran the same ceramic ball in our clutch pusher since 2005 with well over 1,000 runs. It's the white one that's is a step down from the grade 5 (black). We have the black one for a back-up, never felt the need to change out the original. LOL! I wouldn't be afraid of using the grade 5s in the slingshot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 http://www.mcmaster.com/#ceramic-balls/=jwxwim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phunt Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 Will more air gap allow more pressure or less pressure to the pressure plate? I was changing spring pressure but my shims was changing my air gap, just wondering about the air gap applying more or less pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted October 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Will more air gap allow more pressure or less pressure to the pressure plate? I was changing spring pressure but my shims was changing my air gap, just wondering about the air gap applying more or less pressure. I haven't talked about air gap for a reason, it will be in the future. The main topics I have brought up so far follow a pattern that I think is the most crictical to clutch tuning. As for your shimming you must describe or better yet show a pic of where you are shimming. One place will affect both the air gap & spring pressure. The other will only affect the spring pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted November 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Im curious as to why so many people keep buying Lock Ups with "HD" spring kits. After a back to back test I noticed VERY quickly that it is just way to agressive of a set up. It comes on so hard that it almost kills the motors ability to "come on". I definitely encourage folks of any type of motor to run a lock up and lighter spring combo. To many people here just throw in the stiffest springs in it and think the weight is where to begin your tuning. Find a baseline spring pressure FIRST, and you will really start seeing the results in adjusting weight. With the stiff springs in most HD kits you can almost play with the weights all day and get no noticeable gains till maybe the 220ft mark, and that's pretty much for huge motor fellas. Definitely not in the 60ft in my experience. Even trail motors with little bolt on 350's. It is just so much nicer being able to take all the stiff clutch lever pull out of he equation and tune the clutch for your riding and ride much longer! This stuff isn't Just drag. It can apply to us all if you just use your noodle and apply the knowledge posted and test it properly. Clutch tuning is really pretty easy! I've said it many times over. The clutch tuning information has been used in many different Motorsports since the 60's & maybe sooner than that. If people don't want to learn it. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it! Some people are getting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickedcarbine Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Well. I tried to put it back on track with your last topic like 3 pages ago by mentioning base spring pressure...... Hint hint. Maybe determining what/how to choose springs would be a good spot to continue since we just touched on it. Although there was a brief mentioning of air gap on Slower's part and it seems that some one is willing to learn it. So there are areas to touch on. I will keep going on choosing base spring pressure since it is one of the basics that I definitely know. The choices in springs out there are just over whelming if you are not sure what to run but I will help you narrow it down. The fact that you are running a lock up means that it's time to pass on your FAST HD springs to your Popeye fore armed buddy. Find your self about 3 sets of springs to test ranging from stock to a good medium pressure like the Barnett, toomey, or even the tusk ones. I personally like playing with the springs from Driveline Performance. I have found that they are fairly consistant when it comes to height and pressure per part number and as an oval racer I Cryo Treat them to keep a consistant feel. Now pick a baseline weight for the lock up and I'd suggest whatever comes on it out of the package or whatever your lock ups manufacturer suggests. This should be the go to weight each time you want to test a new combination. Now the dirty part. I personally like to start with stiffer springs and make a few runs. Pay attention to what the bike does. Does it wanna bog even under throttle(on good tune) right out of the hole? Try the next set of lighter springs. Did it just slip? Try adding your weight. Keep repeating it till you find that the bike seems to instantly lurch yet not violently jump on to the bar or begin to wheelie to aggressively. Try to get the bike to carry the front tires around the 8-12 inch past the 60 foot if you are on dirt/sand(not an asphalt expert sO maybe slower will chime in) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted November 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Well. I tried to put it back on track with your last topic like 3 pages ago by mentioning base spring pressure...... Hint hint. Nice try Tricked, but I'm glad someone is trying to take something out of this thread. LOL! This thread was started from a couple other threads that went amuck. Then I provided information where I thought clutch tuning started/originated. The 1st real topic that I brought up was Base/Static Pressure. The 2nd was Arm/Dynamic Weight. The 3rd topic was Maintenance/Inspection of clutch pack. I only covered the steels portion & I need to finish the frictions portion. The #1 & #2 topic are what I consider the most important. When you get to the sweet spot on #1 & #2. The more you have to pay attention to other topics I'm bringing up/discussing. Everything is important because it takes the total clutch combination/set-up for it all to work at maximum efficiency. This is the topic I left off with, Maintanence/Inspection of the clutch frictions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfrjag Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 i just measure the friction plates and look for obvioius damage. if i knew what to ask to get more info i would ask. is this jeapordy? what springs are stiffer? burnett, toomey, or driveline are the lightest springs the stock ones? seems to me the driveline frictions grab the hardest with the least amount of pressure, i think they are made of some cork material? for this reason i have been using oem frictions and plates thus far. would using oem or tusk disks and frictions make it easier to tune for this reason? tusk frictions seem very similar to the oem but i could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 are u done with this or what lol Are you asking if I'm done with this topic? I gain nothing by sharing this information. If I had to do it all over again. I would do the thread different, but it's beyond my control on an open forum. i just measure the friction plates and look for obvioius damage. if i knew what to ask to get more info i would ask. is this jeapordy? what springs are stiffer? burnett, toomey, or driveline are the lightest springs the stock ones? seems to me the driveline frictions grab the hardest with the least amount of pressure, i think they are made of some cork material? for this reason i have been using oem frictions and plates thus far. would using oem or tusk disks and frictions make it easier to tune for this reason? tusk frictions seem very similar to the oem but i could be wrong. I haven't got to the friction inspection yet. The main reason is they don't photo well like the steels do. The best I can do is provide written description of what to look for. Hopefully I can get to it this Holiday weekend. I can't answer your question on what springs are stiffer. That's the reason you need a spring pressure tester & the installed hieght of your springs! I'll try & recap the springs I have: Stock, YZF 450, Barnett (light & heavy), EBC, FAST (light & heavy) & probably a couple others I forgot about. It makes no difference to me. I mix, match & modify to get the base pressure I want to use for the conditions. We use the Fast brand/Yamaha 1000 street bike frictions. We have played with 2 or 3 other brands/materials a little. The most important thing to remember is;stay with what gives the best & most consistent results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badassbanshee479 Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 How do you you go about selecting a base pressure and weight to start with? Guess and check? Or is there some kind of formula for determining hp/tq needs this amount of weight and pressure? I tried this at the last race I was at, got the clutch to slip but as soon as the lock up weight hit the bike bogged... I was kinda dumbfounded this stuff actually worked lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted November 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 How do you you go about selecting a base pressure and weight to start with? Guess and check? Or is there some kind of formula for determining hp/tq needs this amount of weight and pressure? I tried this at the last race I was at, got the clutch to slip but as soon as the lock up weight hit the bike bogged... I was kinda dumbfounded this stuff actually worked lol Congrats! You have a good start, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. You really need to start keeping records for the baseline set-up you have now. Then you need to make changes & notes how they affected the run. I'm going to point out one area to start with & you already hit on it; "lock up weight hit the bike bogged". What change are you going to make to correct that problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badassbanshee479 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 I was in a hurry to get the clutch setup to make the last of the t&t for the day... I plan on talking weight away to see if I can get the thing to not bog... Just curious how much to take away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowerThanYou Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 I was in a hurry to get the clutch setup to make the last of the t&t for the day... I plan on talking weight away to see if I can get the thing to not bog... Just curious how much to take away You are correct you must take away some weight. How much weight do you have on the arms now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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