WINDYCITYJOHN400

ANTI - SEIZE EVERY BOLT! EVEN THE LITTLE ONES FOR YOUR PLASTICS IF A BOLT DOESN'T GET ANTI-SEIZE...THEN IT BETTER GET LOCTITE.

KOSO or TTO FTW!

Why not add 2 teeth to your rear or go one smaller on the front? That way instead of spending your day in first.... You can pull second. Try 13-41 if 14-41 was doing what you said.

If you want to NEVER HAVE A PUMP FAILURE, get the billet impeller and metal gear. The stock plastic gear is just held with a pin. If anything wants to lock up....that plastic gear fails and your done. That Mull metal gear upgrades the last weak link in the system. After you have all the right parts, the only thing you will be replacing in the future will be shaft seals and thoses last a long time. No drop in durability with billet.

Yes they are forged.

They simulate mild porting and with just aftermarket pipes 7-8 hp dyno proven is repeatable. The only knock on the pistons has been from people who didn't re-jet for the added power.

Stock stroke 350 on gas hitting mid 70's to 80....NO. More like mid 60's. Still will be a strong motor.

Holy Shit! You need to move!

Sounds like after 10 years of riding like you do...it's time you re-packed your pipes. You have almost no mods yet your peaking out at 101??? Yeah, sounds like your packing is gone. My wife's bike had fresh FMF silencers and has a lot more work done to it than your machine. It passed the DNR test. At least now your know.....you deserved a ticket. Cause 101 is just annoying.

He was asking about a 10 mill DM.....don't think he will need any more torque than that. LOL

People think bigger is better. If your motor was fully ported you could see improvements if you moved to a 28mm flat slide carb or into a 30-33 size. But stockes can make 70+. So when you see guys running 34-35mm carbs on a bolt on machine. It's not helping. The only real plus is aftermarket carbs are easier to make jetting changes.

The info you highlighted is correct because for that section of engine opperation the pilot and airscrew are the only items in use. But figure #7 clearly shows that the pilot and airscrew continue to contribute to the overall mixture. The pilots roll in the mixture doesn't really begin to tapper off until 1/2 way into the needles involvement. So at that point we are seeing the pilot effecting mixture well into 1/2 throttle. (easily described as low RPM and the transition into the mid.) Addressing the reed topic - The motors actualy make more low end power with the 4's. So we know that invloves improved airflow. Regardless of velocity at the reed....the airflow at the carb is improved. A quick visual - if your hosing off your quad, when you put your thumb over the end of the hose the velocity of the water increases at the hose tip. But the flow or amount of water is blocked. Move your thumb away and the amount of water increases even though the velocity drops. The carb is upstream of all that. It's simply the faucet. Much the same as taking your thumb away from the hose allows the faucet to flow more. The same is true for airflow at the carb. I agree with your edit as well. Lectrons are needle heavy in their design. My carb input is based on how Stock/Mikuni/PWK's work.

See figure 7 for a visual on my interpretation on the pilot jet and airscrew's rolls. http://www.iwt.com.au/mikunicarb.htm

Well then feel free to chime in with advice on all the different needles for all the different carb combo's for all the different builds. Or....if you had 3's in your motor and it was running good and then switched to 4's, just go up a pilot size. I have no problem with people who disagree. We each have our way of getting things done. At least we can have a civil chat.

Well that pilot jet doesn't just stop flowing once you roll into the throttle. Once you get going it is part of your overall fuel mixture. It is a player in the overall amount of fuel your motor gets. When you lift off the gas and the carbs slam shut, it's your pilot that helps keep the motor fed. (and happy) Now you can play with your needle and hope that you can get a sweet tune on your bottom end with that.....but I don't think your going to be to lucky if your pilot is wrong. Pilots and air screws are MAJOR players in getting a really GOOD tune on a bike. They roll they play is largely neglected, or misunderstood. But those fine adjustments are important. Plus, don't over think it. The Carb is up stream of the reeds. So regardless of what is happening around the reed tips, the motor is still asking for the same amount of air with each intake pulse. So the signal strength isn't going to be weaker at the jets.

So....let's call that a direct quote from Cam. Engine Ice works "Just as good" as anything else that Cam can come up with. Another ringing endorsement for Engine Ice.

No I am NEVER one to give a crap about a peak number. Those are for braggers. My involvement with dyno testing is only about finding the best overall combo. If people would really give Mat's suggestions on the topic a listen...they would begin to understand that he's talking about the small bores on a 421-465 making 5 more Peak HP as well as a stronger overall curve. (So more mid and low torque as well.) You are correct. In most forms of racing a peak number means nothing. Even in drag racing, having all your focus on a top peak number is only going to hurt your potential. Part of what I'm speaking about is in addressing the culture of the sport. The industry is kinda split 50/50 on some of the paths to power. For a long time people chased HP by simply raising port timings, compression and timing to the moon. This is ingrained in more that a few builders engine building style. Part of what a some builders do is based on sales. (Do you really want your builder to tell you that your newest build needs small pipes? No, you want to hear that your new build is the best out there and needs Big Bore pipes to work......just like beginner guys want to hear that their motor needs race fuel.) Some of what they do is based on feeding into what are common practices. (If your one of those people who think that +14 timing is what it takes to win, are you going to listen when your builder tells you to keep in a lot lower?) Too many build practices are just a series of reactions to starting with the wrong pipe. (A big pipe is tried and the motor needs more bottom end, so they raise compression, close the squish, design a squish band for added torque, raise timing, etc.) Yes these are the hundreds of factors that muddy the real discussion. OR...it makes a killer top number on a dyno, so they run it not knowing they are throwing away a large amount of useable power band. But at least they have a big brag factor..... It comes down to this..... Do guys want to just leave the motor they have the way it sits and continue to tune as they always have, or will they be willing to tune the overall combo? If someone fits into the "My builder built it like this and I'm not changing a thing" category......then have custom pipes made for that exact combo because that is the only way to get the most from it. If someone fits into the "I wanna get everything I can from a motor this size" category.....then you can get an off the shelf pipe and with slight adjustments to your domes and ignition timing, make way more power than if you slapped standard pipes on it. The pipes and motor have to work together because it is a Resonance power plant. If they don't work well together....then they aren't working well. I respect track results. But take this into consideration. I have a 63HP bike in my stable that has never lost to a particular 421 cub powered bike. Does that mean my 63 HP bike is working great? Does that mean his 421 isn't? Is it rider? His bike is nicer.....so even though on the track I win....that doesn't really prove anything as far as a debate about either of our combos. This is why I find dyno information useful. A dyno will 100% show you if you have more power vs another motor or engine combo. It is then on the racer to make the most of it in the bike set-up as well as his riding. The track proves that you made the most of what you loaded in the trailer. I'm trying to address making the most of what you have BEFORE it's trailer time. LOL My take is the pipe builders have seen EVERY major builders work and know what the builders are doing. They have feedback from almost everyone. So I think a pipe builder has a better cross section of information about what works and doesn't (in respect to the details that their pipes like) vs. a builder who can only afford to try a limited amount of changes. I guess the way I see it, if the pipe builder specifically went back and re-designed his SB OOF pipe to zero in on the massive interest the 421-465 Alky Drag motors were getting, I would want to hear just what factors lead a particular motor to favoring a different pipe choice. I'd be interested to hear more details about the motor you spent the time to "Set up optimal" and tested with both pipe sizes. (Not only because my dyno testing on my 472-492 Cheetah and 465 Cub showed the exact opposite, but because I'd like to hear what factors lead to that.) Was that your 10 mill Cub? What all did you do and what ended up being the reason it favored the BB's? (Genuine questions. Not asked with a "Tone".) I know how some of you hate the smileys, so I thought I'd clarify. LOL

Excellent reference. Mat clearly covers the differences in the various pipes. The part I'm most baffled by is the following quote. (Not picking on you Dave, just using your words as an example) dajogejr The Man the legend Group:Lifetime Site Supporter! Posts:3439 Joined:15-May 08 Gender:Male Location:Metro-Detroit Interests:Racing with keyboards or on sand! Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:59 AM Somehow, somewhere...it was stated that anything bigger than a 4 mil cub should have BB pipes.When I talked to you Matt a couple years ago, you stated the BB were initially designed for a 535 Cheetah and anything smaller should be on the SB pipe. I would agree that if you ran the same time with each pipe, down to 60 and MPH the motor is not tuned to optimize the pipe chosen. That also being said, not everyone has the resources to tune max power using a dyno and different setups/combos. Most are like me, we change a part here or there and try different things at the track like fuel, tire pressure, tires, gearing, etc. If Everyone had the time to hit the dyno before they raced each time, we might push this sport faster. Then again, I've seen bikes hot off the dyno melt in real world riding due to temps/load being different than that of the dyno. So I guess my statements are about as clear as mud too...lol. Herr Jugs Racing Team Richards Auto Parts 0 The part I'm baffled by is....when people go to the trouble of doing the dyno testing and even post the explanations as to WHY a pipe is best suited for an application......why do the people who never got either combo dialed in the best possible, always go toe to toe with those who took the time to do the research? I'm not saying they didn't get the bike running good. I'm not even saying they couldn't win a race tuned that way. All I'm trying to point out is......changing a combo around can really wake up a motor. 165PSI and 6-8 degrees of timing on a SB pipe can make a noticeable amount of extra power over motor with BB pipes, 200+ PSI and 12-14 degrees of timing. All that is needed to get the motor in the sweet spot is a simple dome change. J-Madd (in that link) tested SB and BB pipes and got virtually identical timeslips. The SB pipes should have out performed the BB pipes to the tune of 5 HP but they ended up almost the same. They are vastly different pipes in the way they work. if your getting results that are that similar....then neither is working well. I'd just like us to be able to share info and discuss stuff (As I quoted Dave as saying) So "we might push this sport faster"

Your pilot jetting is too lean. List your carbs and jets.

I'd get the reeds. I'd get a different pipe. (I prefer the FMF FATTY's) Skip the carbs. They won't make any more power. your stockers can support up to 70HP. But DO get the TORS eliminator kit. Save what you would have spent on carbs and get a timing plate and a cool head. Great start for a bolt-on bike.

Correct. As tests showed, the modded 3's (Reed stuffer mod) still made less power than the standard 4's. The stuffer in the 4's actually works great and if you do the same mod to the 4's that we have been doing to the 3's for years... you will actually lose power. So no need to mod the 4's. Perfect point. As you make more power, the improvements over the 3's become even greater. All the motors are seeing so much better low and mid power, that they require one size richer pilot jet to make them happy.

Engine Ice

Yep. 4 IV Four For the WIN!

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!!!!! NEXT TIME SOME UN-ORIGINAL MENTAL MIDGIT WANT'S TO BUST MY BALLS ABOUT ME POSTING A PARAGRAPH......I'M GOING TO COPY AND PASTE THAT 2010 POST!!!!! HOLY CRAP!

Well get a quote for a fresh re-build while your talking to him. His entire cooling system could fail and how would he know? After all he's only running for 4 seconds....... Now if you ride....you might want to take some advice from ..........never mind. You'll have to get your education on your own dime.........