SlowerThanYou

There would also be a length difference, depending on reaction time advantage/disadvantage (track) or holeshot advantange/disadvantage (street).

Seat of the pants usually doesn't work. Timed increments is the way to do it. Me personally, I would have stayed with the 6 stock springs. Then would have worked with the arm weights using a gram scale. The clutch is not the cure all for your set-up, but the right clutch set-up along with the overall set-up. Is always key to s strong running quad.

There's some good advice so far, but there are some other options also. One, depending if you are running a lock-up. You can also take away some primary pressure in your clutch to help wiith your wheel spin/60'time. Depending on your arm weights you might have to add weight to get it to lock-up down track. It will not solve all your problems, but it will help with the overall set-up.

Would part of the fix be in the top qoute? I've never had the problem of breaking friction or steels. We did find small cracks starting on the steels, but changed them before breaking them.

I wish I could be as nice as you. This guy is a total idiot. He had this problem a year ago, you & I gave him the proper advice. He runs 1.17 & 1.18 60's so I'm sure he knows what he's doing, LOL! Apparently not, he's still breaking them a year later.

We generally don't mix different fibers, but we have done for testing purposes/durability. As for different steels we mix all the time. Some cryod treated, some hard coated (not all coatings are the same), and different thicknesses. A lot of what we do in the clutch pack is for durability, cooling, consistency & general inspection/maintenance. Is there performance gains also? you bet. Some not always related to ET. I already gave an example. You can have a killer fast clutch set-up, but if it's only good for 1 or two rounds. That will not usually win you a race. Everything has to stay some what consistent in the set-up, as with the rest of the quad set-up. I thought I covered the airgap, but maybe I didn't. Air gap is measured between the lock-up arm & the pressure plate. The arm needs to be parallell to the plate surface when measured. lI will start with the minimum & it's usually around .090 - .100. Thats usually what you need to have the pressure plate totally disengage the clutch pack. The air gap will get larger as the clutch pack wears. Enough for now.

Seems like you keep bringing this old topic up. You asked it a while ago on another site. You didn't like the answers you got from Tedder & I. Your clutch tune-up is not happy. There are many fixes to the chatter, but you don't want to listen. You don't need to ask anyone anything. According to your times you were running in the past. You have the worlds fastest Banshee running low 5's & with sub 1.20 60's. You need to be sharing some of your clutch secrets with us.

I don't know if you can run 7 or 8 plates in the Hinson. Stack hieght does affect base pressure & it can be measured in lbs. We keep our stack hieght within a certain range, depending on different factors. Here's one example: we change our stack height for the different tree speeds, .400 pro light or .500 full tree. That leads to your question of different thickness steels. We change our stack height with the steels up to .016. Give or take a few thousands one way or another. As for the different thickness frictions. We start with the .118 thickness roughly & keep track as it wears down. We then use a combination of frictions & steels to adjust our total stack height. As for ranking the frictions. We have only ran 4 different types & sometimes mixed in the pack. The way we set-up the clutch we only buy the better frictions. Our current YZF1000 fibers have around 200 runs on them. They are getting ready to retire soon. They are still working good, but not at their peak!

IMO there's no need to double stack steels & frictions. We accomplish our slip with springs. The motorcycle guys used to do that & maybe even a few still do. It's a different way of getting slip. Yes, it would help with wheel spin. The clutch is not the cure all for all situations. It's usually the first place I go depending on the situation. We would also look at changing a few other areas also.

Wheelman, after reading my last post I hope you didn't think I was implying the above statement to you. There was some information that I left out of this thread that I would consider spoon feeding. I didn't cover any specific spring pressures (base/static). Plus, I didn't cover any arm weights numbers. I left out some other things also. Now, we have covered the lock-up itself, a few examples/scenerios. where to find some of the information, some hints & probably some other things that I forgot, that was covered. If there was some questions/areas that was not covered well/need more explanation, ask away. The next area dealing with clutch tuning is the clutch pack (frictions & steels). How's this important & how does it affect the lock-up itself or overall clutch tuning? Maybe Wheelman (Chris) has some thoughts on this. Sorry to put you on the spot, LOL!

Angel did a very good job & just fell a little short in two classes. He went a bunch of rounds & lost to Packard in the semi finals in the big money bracket. It paid 1st & 2nd places only. I didn't attend the race & no changes were made on the clutch & 1st gear ratio. The changes were needed & we discussed it. He didn't feel comfortable changing the items I take care of. This was our 4th time on sand & our slowest times so far. Oh well, it was still somewhat fast. Here's a vid of Angel trying his 14 paddle staggered extremes. Our bike didn't like them & quickly went back to the Rippers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c14M9V9VfPk

We all have different ways of doing things. My take is study experts in their specialty. That are consistent in making something work very well. With that being said I will start with Wheelman's 1st para. He covered it pretty well, but I have a little different twist. You need to be well equipped with your clutch tuning kit/tools. We actually have a dedicated 3 drawer tool box. Plus, you need to work out a routine to quickly/effiecently make your clutch tuning adjustments. For the 1st time clutch tuner, you should have your baseline set-up logged/documented at home. I would start with your current set-up. I would make two runs to get the base line for that days conditions. Now, where do you start with your adjustments. Most cases I would recommend lowering the base spring pressure. Your 60' times will tell you if the change is correct or not. Now, for your bbbbbooooooooggggggggggg scenerio. You have made some good basic recommendations already. If that bog run was on the 1st pass. I would come back & try it again. That situation happened to us in Feb & we started chasing our tails with the clutch base pressure. Long story on why it bogged. Back to your BBBOOOOGGG scenerio. There are many different types of boggs & where they happen depends on the proper adjustment to be made. I will assume your bog was immediately at the drop of the clutch. When that happens it darn near kills the motor & sometimes it does kill it. With out a doubt I would try another pass. If the out come is the same. I would lighten up the base spring pressure. Now, if it was close to making a clean launch. It really depends on what you interpet as close. I use a recent example we used on a very loose track. We were blowing the tires away on the initial hit. I choose to start lowering launch rpm to correct the problem. We starting with low 1.50s 60's and worked our way down to high 1.30s 60's. This was on what I call a poor track conditions. Anyway, I wish I had video of a few of the passes. The motor rpm was being pulled down to almost a bog. If I would of lowered another couple 100 rpm it probably would have bogged. We were walking a fine line with that set-up. As for you last sentence, I hope I clarified your scenerio. I'm trying to provide some good info without spilling out everything. I firmly believe with spoon feeding you learn nothing. You need to feed yourself to actually learn/comprehend what's going on. I hope people continue to ask question. They should be able to improve the clutch tuning skills with this information. In order to take it to the next level, there's a lot more involve. More information to come in the future!

When we first started in 2005 only about 5 runs. 2006 we started getting around 40 runs. Somewhere around 2008 we started getting 100 runs. The current clutch we have in has 200 + asphalt/sand runs. The clutch still performs well, but the quickest 60's sign off around 100-120 runs.

Chris, It's been a while since you commented. I know the subject has strayed a couple times. Maybe you could get us back on track or provide some input? Bryan

A few people have tried the slider on a 2 stroke ATV without much success. That's not saying they will not work. I would probably try one under the right conditions.

Sure is, we use around 40 millisecond kill. We have around 900 runs using it.

I would start with what you have & get a baseline. That's if you still have them same paddles. While our set-up is not exactly the same, it could provide you some insight. We have a stock frame 443 cub on race gas with a 210 + lb. rider & a +14 swingarm. Our 1st time on 300' with our old 22x11x8 12 paddle extremes on a 8" wide rim. We got deep into the 3s, but we did have some traction problems in 3rd & 4th gears. Our 2nd & 3rd times to 300' we bought 22x11x8 14 paddle Rippers on a 10" wide rim. I'm not recommending Rippers, but giving you information on what we have done. BTW we love the Rippers, but they are not for everyone.

IMO the 1-4 manual 5 & 6 is the most reliable & forgiving transmission you can run. As for shifting 5 & 6 we use a shift kill. It still allows for full throttle clutchless shifts.

There's some good information in the Drag Forum section on lock-up tuning.

I'm going to stress a few basic key areas. This applies to anyone that's tuning a clutch/lock-up. Maybe, I'm not explaining somethings right. You need to know your springs installed height. Need the springs pressure at that installed height times 6 if you are running six springs. Finally, you need to measure the arm weights with a scale (we use grams). This is a baseline you can make adjustments too without chasing your tail. There are others factors that come into play also, but these are the basic key areas. All my quad stuff is headed for Gilbert, LA. When it returns, I will show how to measure the installed height of the springs. Brad, It would help if you had the above information. With the information you gave me above. I'm assumming you have not run the 8 plate set-up yet. With everything being equal between the 7 & 8 set-up. You have more holding/clutch than the 7 plate. As a minimum I need the actual weight on the arms in grams & where the clutch is slipping/not holding.

We have learned a thing or two with the clutch set-up on the dyno.

Clutch is not everything, but it's pretty darn close. Seems like everyone is starting to chase the clutch info.

1-4, manual 5 & 6. We also have a 1-6, but doesn't get used much because of reliability.

Yes, all our tracks use some type of traction compound; some better than other's. I guess they are better than your track, sorry. You would have to be on the lighter side with your base pressure. The clutch is not going to totally fix your problem. You need to look at something different. I've never done these items, but have seen many successful racer's use these techniques. Jr, dragsters will roller coat their tires with VHT traction compond. They cover their tires with saran wrap then remove it near the starting line. That alllows them to get close to the starting line without picking up everything in the pits. The second one is to put the VHT into a small squirt bottle. Street racer's use this technique. Squirt a little VHT in front of both tires & do a small burnout/spin in the compound. Then roll to the line. I'm pretty sure you would have to cut down the VHT with methanol. If the track will allow it, this would be the method I would use. I'm assuming, you are talking about splitting the 6 arms into pairs of 2. Then add equal amounts of weight opposite of each other. I know people that have done that, but it's not what I prefer to do on my current set-up. We try & keep the initial/static /base weight as evenly distributed as possible on the clutch pack. Plus, we like the ability to make small pressure adjustments with that weight. If I was to start all over, learning what I have learned. I would start on the heavier side on the base pressure & also on the arm pressure. To prevent the fast death of the clutch as you put it. Now, for my current method of clutch tuning. We have a general window we like to set-up for. Our main goal is not to bog down the motor. A bog is much worse than excessive wheel spin when it come to affecting ET. Professor, LOL! I have a hard time educating myself sometimes. Luckily, I have another clutch fanatic (Tedder), that we have both learned this stuff together. On your 1st question. It's going to vary on many different factors. Here's a generic answer between 20'-50'. I'm open to more discussion on this later. We know approximately where we want it to lock up on asphalt & still learning on 300' with our set-up. Tuning without 60' timer it would help using a data logging system & is a benifit even with the timer. The bottom line is, your 60' will tell you if you are going in the right or wrong direction. 2nd question. I have to address at a later time. I'm going to refer you to post #4 of this thread. We measure each spring & add them together to get the total base pressure. I'm pretty sure I also covered that the spring has to be measured at the installed height. The picture I posted, was not at our installed height & was for reference only.

Our quad & trailer is headed for the GATORNATIONALS in Gilbert, LA. Apr. 24-28. Wish I was going, but we have 3 days of drag racing in the same period of time. Our Puerto Rico Team will have 3 quads competing. Angel will be riding ours (443 Cub on race gas) in limited 0-525, bracket & possibly index. Angel's quad (535) will be in limited 0-650. Noel will run 0-825 limited & unlimited. Last time out, Noel went 3.52. The old record stands at 3.48 & new ones haven't been established for PSDA.