The ultimate showdown cool head vs shaved stock head

[donkeypuncher]

Not everyone needs more than +4

 

 

so narrow minded. nobody really "needs" much of anything. you buy it because you want it. just like you might want to add timing. or maybe you buy an aftermarket ignition and want to retard your timing. no two bikes are the same, different amounts of timing are needed for every bike. +4 is the more pupular setting but that doesnt mean it's the best setting for your bike.

[locogato11283]

I don't NEED an 18mm DM, but I sure do like having the power when I WANT it.

 

Some guys might not NEED more than +4 but like having the capability to go to +7 if they WANT..

 

Here's an idea SLORYDER... Sit down with a pen and some paper. THINK about what you're going to type. Write it down. Read it back to yourself and see if it makes any sense. Once you realize that it in fact DOES NOT make sense, scratch your balls and go have a beer.

[So Cal Suspension]

Here's an idea SLORYDER... Sit down with a pen and some paper. THINK about what you're going to type. Write it down. Read it back to yourself and see if it makes any sense. Once you realize that it in fact DOES NOT make sense, scratch your balls and go have a beer.

 

First he'd have to ask his wife for them back, before he could scratch them. I think just for shits and grins... you should take away the ability for him to edit his posts, so we can REALLY see what comes out before he proof reads it. lol.

[blowit]

Just thought I would stop in and stir the pot...

 

We machine stock heads for a variety of applications in the Banshee. In some circumstances, a cut stock head will run warmer than a comparable billet head. I will admit that an increase in coolant volume as well as internal surface area does help in the heat transfer efficiency. However, something to consider is many billet heads are able to move coolant straight across the head without going into the water jackets which can drastically affect sensor readings. It is very important to extract heat from the engine in the water jackets as well. This "short circuiting" effect can certain affect the perceived outlet temps while creating hot spots in the cylinder walls.

 

It it important to also note that you need to retain a certain amount of heat in the head for proper combustion.

 

I am not at all knocking billet heads. They work and have for 20+ years. It is important however to compare apples to apples. Actual cylinder temps are important data in comparisons like these. Considering that a Banshee engine can create 60kw of heat on demand, a few oz of water mathematically would not be a fix all because you still need to dissipate that amount of heat through thermal exchange.

 

It is actually a total "fail" in design that the Banshee does not have good flowing water jackets and insufficient cooling around where a lot of the heat actually is - The exhaust ports...

 

As far as HP is concerned, it really comes down to the matter of optimal design vs design limits in the stock head. There are certain things we cannot do with the stock head like create a 16:1 UCCR for a 350 stock stroke engine. Just not enough meat in the head for that. However, there are many apps such as a 4mm stroker stock cyl, 68mm cubs, etc that we can build a very good performing head for. Many of our customers prefer the stock head cuts to retain the use of proven stock type head gaskets as well as retain a stealth appearance. When you go to alky, most any of your heat issues just become moot due the drastic vaporization properties of alky..

 

 

 

Brandon

Mull Engineering

[SLORYDER]

Just thought I would stop in and stir the pot...

 

We machine stock heads for a variety of applications in the Banshee. In some circumstances, a cut stock head will run warmer than a comparable billet head. I will admit that an increase in coolant volume as well as internal surface area does help in the heat transfer efficiency. However, something to consider is many billet heads are able to move coolant straight across the head without going into the water jackets which can drastically affect sensor readings. It is very important to extract heat from the engine in the water jackets as well. This "short circuiting" effect can certain affect the perceived outlet temps while creating hot spots in the cylinder walls.

 

It it important to also note that you need to retain a certain amount of heat in the head for proper combustion.

 

I am not at all knocking billet heads. They work and have for 20+ years. It is important however to compare apples to apples. Actual cylinder temps are important data in comparisons like these. Considering that a Banshee engine can create 60kw of heat on demand, a few oz of water mathematically would not be a fix all because you still need to dissipate that amount of heat through thermal exchange.

 

It is actually a total "fail" in design that the Banshee does not have good flowing water jackets and insufficient cooling around where a lot of the heat actually is - The exhaust ports...

 

As far as HP is concerned, it really comes down to the matter of optimal design vs design limits in the stock head. There are certain things we cannot do with the stock head like create a 16:1 UCCR for a 350 stock stroke engine. Just not enough meat in the head for that. However, there are many apps such as a 4mm stroker stock cyl, 68mm cubs, etc that we can build a very good performing head for. Many of our customers prefer the stock head cuts to retain the use of proven stock type head gaskets as well as retain a stealth appearance. When you go to alky, most any of your heat issues just become moot due the drastic vaporization properties of alky..

 

 

 

Brandon

Mull Engineering

 

I was really, reeeaaally hoping someone would chime in with an intelligent answer.

Thank you.

 

Do you believe that a head cut for race fuel can be used in a pump gas situation if you were to use a thicker head gasket?

I realize there would be some inefficiency due to the squish band, but the bike with the thicker gasket (pump gas)would still perform better than stock, if the need for pump gas would arise right?

[blowit]

 

Do you believe that a head cut for race fuel can be used in a pump gas situation if you were to use a thicker head gasket?

I realize there would be some inefficiency due to the squish band, but the bike with the thicker gasket (pump gas)would still perform better than stock, if the need for pump gas would arise right?

 

 

No, I would generally not recommend adding or subtracting gasket thickness in order to adjust the compression ratio for use of different fuels.

 

 

Brandon

[So Cal Suspension]

No, I would generally not recommend adding or subtracting gasket thickness in order to adjust the compression ratio for use of different fuels.

 

 

Brandon

Uh oh...

[So Cal Suspension]

I was really, reeeaaally hoping someone would chime in with an intelligent answer.

Thank you.

 

Do you believe that a head cut for race fuel can be used in a pump gas situation if you were to use a thicker head gasket?

I realize there would be some inefficiency due to the squish band, but the bike with the thicker gasket (pump gas)would still perform better than stock, if the need for pump gas would arise right?

[dlnoss]

I can't resist any longer....

 

A reworked stock head can perform very well. I use the term 'reworked' because simply milling the stock head only raises the compression and can yield a too tight squish clearance.

 

Brandon 'reworks' the head the right way as I understand. Nothing wrong with that.

 

-------------

 

Stating firm temperature, horsepower, or power curve numbers is impossible since there are so many variables. I could say "My xxcc xxmm bore xx degree domes with a xx wide squish area in a Banshee with xx carbs and xx jets and +xx timing will run 20 degrees cooler on a 95 degree day when the barometric pressure is 29.90. It might sound really intelligent to someone (probably not) but it would be BS.

 

The head I've been making for over ten years does cool the cylinders evenly and doesn't allow the coolant to just flow across the top of the domes. The combustion chambers need to be hot to function properly.

 

Bling, cooling, good and fairly unlimited chamber design, and ease of changing the chamber are the strong points of a billet head. It's not even limited to billet heads. There has been, and will be more, cast heads that use interchangeable domes. Stay tuned.

 

-David

[shanYE west]

I can't resist any longer....

 

A reworked stock head can perform very well. I use the term 'reworked' because simply milling the stock head only raises the compression and can yield a too tight squish clearance.

 

Brandon 'reworks' the head the right way as I understand. Nothing wrong with that.

 

-------------

 

Stating firm temperature, horsepower, or power curve numbers is impossible since there are so many variables. I could say "My xxcc xxmm bore xx degree domes with a xx wide squish area in a Banshee with xx carbs and xx jets and +xx timing will run 20 degrees cooler on a 95 degree day when the barometric pressure is 29.90. It might sound really intelligent to someone (probably not) but it would be BS.

 

The head I've been making for over ten years does cool the cylinders evenly and doesn't allow the coolant to just flow across the top of the domes. The combustion chambers need to be hot to function properly.

 

Bling, cooling, good and fairly unlimited chamber design, and ease of changing the chamber are the strong points of a billet head. It's not even limited to billet heads. There has been, and will be more, cast heads that use interchangeable domes. Stay tuned.

 

-David

 

Anything for a DM yet?? lol

[sandman81]

wheres your proof they dont improve cooling? and whats this nonsense about sending your cylinders off to have them ported? what ever happend to your custom self porting that was a better bang for your buck? did you finally realize you were wrong about that too?

 

Of course he has proof. This guys knows his SHIT.

[dajogejr]

No, I would generally not recommend adding or subtracting gasket thickness in order to adjust the compression ratio for use of different fuels.

 

 

Brandon

 

Precisely how I feel....

 

I have run two different types of cool heads AND a cut stocker on both of my cub motors (first 4 now 10 mil)

 

Since you can throw out the theory "slap a thicker head gasket in there"...you'd have to have 2 different heads to give you two different power characteristics.

Once you have the cool head, you're limited only by dome choice. You can interchange the domes all the way up to 68mm bore...(I know you can go bigger, but that's too thin for my taste)

 

You don't have to send anything out to be machined, you have the luxury of better sealing Orings, etc.

 

Take the price of a set of domes vs the price of a stock head, having it machined, etc. They'll equal out. But..once the head is cut, you're stuck with it. You can just swap domes.

 

I ran a stocker cut and Oringed. It was still a PITA to get it to seal. Plus...we all know we like a little trick looking parts on our bike.

 

If you want to spend a few bucks, get your stocker milled .010 to .020 (without changing the squish angle/combustion area) yes, it's a cheap bump in power...by all means. But you're limited to what you can do with a stocker, one cut you're done.

[madjimmax]

90 members have casted votes

only 75 votes total???

what gives.

the count is 7 for stock

63 for cool head

5 for retarded/dont give a shit

According to slo thats just 63 brainwashed people. LOL

[Chariot Performance]

not only is tyler the head og of this site but he is a die hard banshee owner. thats whats great about him running this joint, he's just like all of us, if he has an opinion or something to say he's gonna say it. thats the example he gets across by his posts, its an open forum and anybody can say anything (though some may take that to the extreme).

 

Of course I would like everyone to buy a cool head and to buy ours. I believe you have a question to ask reguardless of horsepower. Short term is a it a good choice or long term. Most people who would even consider doing anything to their head will eventually do more than one thing with their head. Assuming they will only ever need two sets of domes or two stock heads configured differently what is the cost for that. All things new then the cool head is cheaper $169.00 + $60.00 + $60.00= $289.00 for cool head. Stock new original + milled and configured $80.00 +$15.00 + $15.00 (gaskets) + $169.00 (new stock head) + this one rechambered $80.00= $359.00. Long term you just won't end up ahead. You could go used stock heads but you can with cool heads also.

 

As far as Tyler's post I believe it is unprofessional, even though he has a right to his opinion. Drama only sells short term at best. All sights that gradually move more and more to the drama side eventually go to the wayside. I hope this one does not because I like it and greatly appreciate the members and sponsors. I send people here on a weekly basis to get banshee advice.

Jerry

[AKheathen]

I realize that not many will go out and buy a dreme and try to cut their own cylinders, although you can get 10hp out of them pretty easily.

Even used, you will spend 100 more for the same performance.

If you were mattsec, you could spend that money on a hooker, so you could at least get a sense that a woman has somewhat of an interest in getting to know you.

wtf? hookers are interested in not knowing you and forgetting as soon as possible, since you would just remind them that they are a hooker. besides, hookers are great for treating them like hookers. however, matt isn't allowed to see hookers anymore.

 

 

What on God's green earth does that even mean? Since when do hookers want to get to know you?

 

BWAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHA You are probably one of the dumbest individuals I have ever crossed paths with.

 

 

According to slo thats just 63 brainwashed people. LOL

i doned nowe about yoo , but i wash my brane daylee