the shame on me part, is because, after i posted this post, i went down stairs to try and get them on. SAD thing they dont fit. Since they are the old school PT's unfortunatly they are for the j-arm frame, which means im fucked. I got the a-arm frame so that is what is stopping them from getting in. I will try tomorrow, to get them in by unscrewing the engine, and lifting the front side of the engine up, and that will hopefully allow the pipes to go in.... And when i let the engine down, hope fully that will trap them in and i can bolt them in. So anyone got anybetter ideas?? i love these pipes, and i really want to see em bolted in. BTW im going to see a 87' banshee this weeked, which is with the j-arm frame. My dad apparantly wants a shee now, so we found this 87 for a good price. but is still want to bolt these pipes on mine, and help would greatly be appreciated...