bansheesrtoys Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) well not saying my set-up is the best but is does a damn good job. and i don't feel bad the next day nor do i get tired as fast. here it is. wicked +2+1 arms-$450 elka stage 3's bought brand new bought on sale-$800 RPM dominator +2 axle-$350 gripper seat-$40 -2 swing-arm with round house carrier-$450 R/A shedders all around-$225 for all of them, but since i bought them i notice they went up in price like double. stock rear shock and link. i can take whoops just as fast as dirt bikes and over jump a few jumps and it feels good. not sayin i jumping 80ft gaps but big enough to where with my stock set-up would hurt me for a week. i know you said you don't want a shorter swing-arm but it really helps alot. next i plan on getting a stabilizer which is about $350-400 for a good one like elka or gpr.also a good set of bars and gripps will help to. i don't ride mx every weekend either but when i do it doesn't bother the next day. i wouldn't get the yfz shocks for one reason,if they were so good then why do the oweners sell them to buy after-market ones?jmo Edited August 15, 2011 by bansheesrtoys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybobby Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Budget get used stuff for sure. Lots of decent used stuff out there, arms, shocks, axle or even offset wheels for the rear until you can bust the stock axle. Don't go offset on the front. My opinion don't waste your money if you are going to ride mx tracks. If you EVER want to be remotely serious get a 450 or a LSR 450 based frame we all waste money on the the poorly designed banshee frame. I have done it to stage three elkas and LSR a arms, durablue axle and a pep rear shock. Yeah the ride is tons better but it is like pissing in the wind compared to my LSR outlaw. You can get a LSR Yfz or honda based frame for 2500 buy used 450 parts and set it all up for your weight. Then take the only parts that are any good off the shee Motor, seat and plastics. I think you could build a pretty sick LSR shee now for pretty close to the cost of a new 450 if you shopped right. I did read his post just being honest sure a good rider can make up for the short comings somewhat on a motocross track but toss that same rider on a well built 450 or LSR framed shee and there will be no comparison regardless of how much is spent on suspension. At least that's how it has worked for me :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sangheraent Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 You are not making any sense. You are telling him to look for used yfz shocks that have already been "customized and worked on" for a DIFFERENT rider. He needs shocks set up for HIM! There is no reason to spend $300 on stock yfz shocks when he can get a pair of used aftermarket shocks for that. oh then why not just give baldwin a call and get some PEPs on order. common man think logically here guy wants to ride the track once in a while not become doug gust. If hes riding a stock banshee I could give him any random shock and he would think its gold stock is garbage. hes not gonna be able to find shit that is set up him for mx on a BANSHEE for a decent price. If somebody has a set of stock yfz shocks that have been re-valved for a novice MX rider that is going to much better then a set of used steelers. regardless the guy that started this thread hasn't replied and hasn't given us shit for information. no point in arguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 here is my opinion. rec racers ( i believe this is you) +3+1 forward a-arms ( you can keep the stock offset fronts and it will turn nicer) -1 round carrier swingarm this makes them more stable in the air you basically moved the motor back 1 inch and leveled out the nose heavy banshee. ANY +4 axle i'd rather have a nice used LSR than any other BUT a g force will be ok. WORKS front shocks with ressy there are 5/8 shaft fronts out there and maybe even find some black widows or dual line ressy shocks. OR any after market front just plan on having them rebuilt and honestly a rebuild may cost the same as a set of new ones SO watch it! another thing that peeps arent sayibng is the motor if the motor hits really hard tha will wear you out faster than anything.. also BARS! the GEO of te bars, pegs, etc goes a LONG way in comfort if you can hack it a decent anti vib stem and a set of KX high bars is a good combo stay away from those retarded "atv" bends with a shit ton of pull back. that makes a lot of strain on your wrists and can hurt you if you of camber land a jump then TRAINING!! YES mx is a WORKOUT you are going to be sore and your gonna hurt but if you keep with it you will notice you will get stronger.. i do whole heartly also agree with the 450 statement. a nicely built average 450 will flat out stomp a banshee with the same rider mostly from modern ergo's and a motor that dosnet wear you out as bad. the OUTLAW is a bad ass MX bike but as stated is gonna cost you out the ass to get one,. OR you can do this!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybobby Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Wow DDQ I was giving him some advice if he even remotely thinks he wants to get more serious. I get how you think its off track but I wish someone told me not to spend allot of money on a poorly designed frame in the 90’s! I started with the same idea he has. It didn’t last long though who really goes to a track and wants to get smoked or be mediocre? I have personally wasted too much money on 4 different shee’s only to learn even with top notch suspension a shee is still a mediocre setup at best with a stock frame. You are more than welcome to come ride my quad anytime if you would like to see the difference it makes. It really is night and day! In the end he will do what he thinks is right why not give him all the info he can handle. Here is my opinion again spend 1,200 to 1,500 to get used stuff and have a decent handling shee. The best choice in my opinion save and build something that will make every 450 dirtbike and quad rider at the track, dunes, trails scratch their head and say how is he doing that on a shee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 OR any after market front just plan on having them rebuilt and honestly a rebuild may cost the same as a set of new ones SO watch it! Gunna have to SLIGHTLY disagree. If you can find a set of new stage 4 Elka's for $174 bucks, point me in that direction, I'll go into resale! Maybe only shock rebuilds cost a lot after you get your paws on them... ...Kidding... sorta... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Lets put this thread to rest, shall we? This is going to be a long read, so put your big boy panties on. Okay... Here are some reasons FOR and AGAINST YFZ shocks... PROS: Compression/rebound adjustable Piggyback reservoir Threaded preload Look kinda cool Dual Rate spring kits are available for them CONS: Already valved to the MAX from the factory Don't work well on stock arms Expensive to repair Small shafts Small pistons Now, I am sure there are more pros and cons on these shocks, but that's all I could think of right now. I always have told people, DO NOT run these shocks on stock arms. It's not because of all the ball joint hoopla that people like to blab about, they are just too long, and don't work as well as an aftermarket shock would. Sure, they'll be better than stock, but if you're going to spend 200+ on take off YFZ shocks, why not spend $250 and get aftermarket shocks, that were designed for your machine. Onto a STOCK Banshee rear shock. These shocks are extraordinarily good shocks. The reason they work like shit for most people, is because they have to come from the factory set up for such a BROAD range of customers, that unless you fall into the exact make-up of what the Yamaha engineers set them up for, you're not going to like it. From my experience, they are sprung for a 155-165lb rider, and valved for a 200-220lb rider. This makes for a SHITTY ride off the shelf. They have compression/rebound adjustment, threaded preload, static valving, etc. They are IDENTICAL inside to an Ohlins shock that some people pay upwards of $500+ for. They use the EXACT same seal heads as a Ohlins shocks. The IFP (Internal Floating Piston) in the reservoir, is stamped with the same number as the Ohlins shock. The options for the stock rear shock are endless. Consider them an Elka Stage 3, without all the fancy red anodizing. Same options, and frankly an 1/8th of the price. I've read through all the bickering on here, and honestly, most of you have bits and pieces of truth, mixed in with a little skewed opinion. I'll do my best to give you the truth, and then my unbiased opinion. Fact: Best shocks money can buy >$900 = Custom Axis Racing Best "middle of the road" shock $500-$700 = Elka stage 3 Best Economical shock <$500 = Works Performance Remote Reservoir These are facts, based on oil flow/capacity, piston design, valving setups, spring sliders, etc. My opinion: Buy the best suspension you can fit into your budget. If your budget is less than $1,000 for an entire suspension setup. It's DEFINITELY possible. No you won't have the best of everything, but it will be hand-over-fist better than stock. This is what I would do for a setup under $1,000, regardless of what terrain you are riding. Used Fullflight, wicked, or similar a-arms, +2+1 = $300 Used Works Performance Remote Reservoir Shocks = $300 Stock Rear Shock, Revalved and Resprung = $238 Total, You'd be at $840ish. Leaves you $160 bucks for odds and ends. DDQ was correct in his comment regarding Works Performance non reservoir (Steeler) shocks not being a great choice for MX style riding. The reason is this. They are what we call an "emulsion" shock, meaning the nitrogen and oil co-mingle inside the shock body, and during prolonged periods of riding, the oil will foam, and lead to premature oil breakdown, as well as alter the viscosity of the oil deteriorating lubrication properties. Heat can also play a factor in hard MX style riding. While ATV shocks rarely displace enough oil to benefit greatly from the cooling characteristics of a reservoir, under certain circumstances they can; IE MX riding. The reservoirs serve more than one purpose. In addition to the added cooling, they (using different methods) keep the oil and nitrogen separate, helping to reduce "fade" that is commonly noticed with non reservoir shocks. The oil does not foam, therefore you maintain an constant oil viscosity, and constant dampening characteristics. Billybobby is DEFINITELY correct in the fact that no matter how much money you put into a Banshee suspension, it is still not going to be the best on the track. Can't say the same about TRX450's, or YFZ450's. $2,000 into a YFZ450, and you will run circles around a Banshee with $4,000 in it. Banshee's are heavy, lumbering machines. They are predominantly front heavy, which makes them difficult to jump. With everything I've said in mind, Banshee's are still one of the funnest machines to have out on an MX track. The light switch power requires incredible rider skill. I've always said that ANYONE can race a 4stroke, but it takes a skilled rider to be successful at racing a Banshee. /thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotta_goatsfast Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Matt is a smart guy. Don't skim over his posts, READ them. Here's the route I took (I ride tracks and races recreationally so it comes out of my own pocket...) Fireball +2+1 A-arms bought used here for $300 PEPs triple rate shocks with ressie for front bought used for $300 New springs and valving from MattSCSS (shouldn't tell you the price since its his business.... but cheap enough that I am sure he didn't make any profit on) Stock rear shock with gold valving and resprung by MattSCSS (again, check with him) YFZ450 front brake calipers/master cylinder/lines used for $100 A G-Force Axle used but never installed for $80 Against MX type of quad builds, I chose a +2 swingarm because of the 421 serval motor (no way I could get away with anything smaller for what I do). $400 new/ used round carrier $60. If you take out the swingarm and use the stock one (roundhouse axle carriers are ten fold better than the factory unit though) I have less than $1300 for a suspension with quality components and the shocks are tuned for exactly my weight, riding style, and modifications (a-arms/swinger, ect...) Only you can figure out what the best setup is for you. For my budget, this was the ticket. A little patience and some studying goes a long way. Hang out here in the FOR SALE section and eventually what you'll need will pop up. Especially toward the end of the riding season and in the beginning of the riding season. I should add, that even when I purchased the components I ran them as-is for a year before shipping them to Matt. While the parts themselves did wonders over a stock suspension, when Matt personalizes them to you and your machine, it is truely a night and day difference. I really would stay away from YFZ450 take-off shocks if you can. If you are going to buy a used shock, might as well budget a little more for shocks made specifically for a banshee. If you need to, save up for another month to cover the difference. And if you cannot do it all at once, pick up performance banshee shocks first. Run them on stock arms until you are able to pick up some longer a-arms. Then send out your front shocks to Matt and he will set them up for you and the +2 arms. Purchase a wider axle and run that. Then, when funds are available ship out the rear shock to Matt and let him work his magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ LiL Mike Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 oh then why not just give baldwin a call and get some PEPs on order. common man think logically here guy wants to ride the track once in a while not become doug gust. If hes riding a stock banshee I could give him any random shock and he would think its gold stock is garbage. hes not gonna be able to find shit that is set up him for mx on a BANSHEE for a decent price. If somebody has a set of stock yfz shocks that have been re-valved for a novice MX rider that is going to much better then a set of used steelers. regardless the guy that started this thread hasn't replied and hasn't given us shit for information. no point in arguing. I have replied to this thread a few times and tired to give as much detail as i can in my first post (what more information are you looking for?). DDQ has been very active in this topic and i got my question answered in no time. Even after my question was answered, i have been reading the thread after a new reply has been posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ LiL Mike Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Lets put this thread to rest, shall we? This is going to be a long read, so put your big boy panties on. Okay... Here are some reasons FOR and AGAINST YFZ shocks... PROS: Compression/rebound adjustable Piggyback reservoir Threaded preload Look kinda cool Dual Rate spring kits are available for them CONS: Already valved to the MAX from the factory Don't work well on stock arms Expensive to repair Small shafts Small pistons Now, I am sure there are more pros and cons on these shocks, but that's all I could think of right now. I always have told people, DO NOT run these shocks on stock arms. It's not because of all the ball joint hoopla that people like to blab about, they are just too long, and don't work as well as an aftermarket shock would. Sure, they'll be better than stock, but if you're going to spend 200+ on take off YFZ shocks, why not spend $250 and get aftermarket shocks, that were designed for your machine. Onto a STOCK Banshee rear shock. These shocks are extraordinarily good shocks. The reason they work like shit for most people, is because they have to come from the factory set up for such a BROAD range of customers, that unless you fall into the exact make-up of what the Yamaha engineers set them up for, you're not going to like it. From my experience, they are sprung for a 155-165lb rider, and valved for a 200-220lb rider. This makes for a SHITTY ride off the shelf. They have compression/rebound adjustment, threaded preload, static valving, etc. They are IDENTICAL inside to an Ohlins shock that some people pay upwards of $500+ for. They use the EXACT same seal heads as a Ohlins shocks. The IFP (Internal Floating Piston) in the reservoir, is stamped with the same number as the Ohlins shock. The options for the stock rear shock are endless. Consider them an Elka Stage 3, without all the fancy red anodizing. Same options, and frankly an 1/8th of the price. I've read through all the bickering on here, and honestly, most of you have bits and pieces of truth, mixed in with a little skewed opinion. I'll do my best to give you the truth, and then my unbiased opinion. Fact: Best shocks money can buy >$900 = Custom Axis Racing Best "middle of the road" shock $500-$700 = Elka stage 3 Best Economical shock <$500 = Works Performance Remote Reservoir These are facts, based on oil flow/capacity, piston design, valving setups, spring sliders, etc. My opinion: Buy the best suspension you can fit into your budget. If your budget is less than $1,000 for an entire suspension setup. It's DEFINITELY possible. No you won't have the best of everything, but it will be hand-over-fist better than stock. This is what I would do for a setup under $1,000, regardless of what terrain you are riding. Used Fullflight, wicked, or similar a-arms, +2+1 = $300 Used Works Performance Remote Reservoir Shocks = $300 Stock Rear Shock, Revalved and Resprung = $238 Total, You'd be at $840ish. Leaves you $160 bucks for odds and ends. DDQ was correct in his comment regarding Works Performance non reservoir (Steeler) shocks not being a great choice for MX style riding. The reason is this. They are what we call an "emulsion" shock, meaning the nitrogen and oil co-mingle inside the shock body, and during prolonged periods of riding, the oil will foam, and lead to premature oil breakdown, as well as alter the viscosity of the oil deteriorating lubrication properties. Heat can also play a factor in hard MX style riding. While ATV shocks rarely displace enough oil to benefit greatly from the cooling characteristics of a reservoir, under certain circumstances they can; IE MX riding. The reservoirs serve more than one purpose. In addition to the added cooling, they (using different methods) keep the oil and nitrogen separate, helping to reduce "fade" that is commonly noticed with non reservoir shocks. The oil does not foam, therefore you maintain an constant oil viscosity, and constant dampening characteristics. Billybobby is DEFINITELY correct in the fact that no matter how much money you put into a Banshee suspension, it is still not going to be the best on the track. Can't say the same about TRX450's, or YFZ450's. $2,000 into a YFZ450, and you will run circles around a Banshee with $4,000 in it. Banshee's are heavy, lumbering machines. They are predominantly front heavy, which makes them difficult to jump. With everything I've said in mind, Banshee's are still one of the funnest machines to have out on an MX track. The light switch power requires incredible rider skill. I've always said that ANYONE can race a 4stroke, but it takes a skilled rider to be successful at racing a Banshee. /thread Great write up!! Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figjam Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Where do you guys get elka stage 3 shocks for $500?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 that lil one made up my mind.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 i have a full set of AXIS shocks but i'm sure acording to matt i should toss them in the trash and buy brand new elka's that was a lil below the belt there bud.. not everyone has a substanital bank account to fund projects. a decent set of works shocks for the average weekend rider work very well. i would personally rather have those than a set of yfz fonts they dont fit right, and to me they ride like shit. on the yfz frame they are at least a lil bit better. if you want to MX race with a banshee motor, and are serious buy a full chassis.. OR modify a YFZ chassis. there are a bunch out there with a TON of suspension work, that have blown to fuck motors and the owners are not going to fix Did you even read my post before saying this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 huh where did that come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 From your first reply that you posted, then deleted, and then made a new post which still exists above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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