Ressurection

[BenBB]

Got to kicking an idea around in my head yesterday...what if 2006 (in the US) wasn't the end of the line for Banshee production? Call me crazy, but bear with me...what if:

 

You could order a brand new zero-hour Banshee, let's just call it a 2008 for argument's sake. Let's just say around 10 grand, ballpark. Your choice between;

 

Drag (stretched frame, long round housing swingarm, stroked and ported cubs, out of frame pipes, Marvin Shaws and a low seat-Haulers, Hoosiers or Pro-Wedge depending on terrain)

 

Flattrack (250R front end frame, aluminum sub, sway bar, AFCO shocks, -2 round housing swingarm, cheetahs, maybe LRD pipes, two-piston front and four-piston rear calipers, titanium hardware-TT/ST/Supermoto/Pike's Peak style)

 

Trail (250R front end, maybe T-pin, TCS/Elka/Axis all the way around, Lonestar axle & round housing swinger, 4 gal dry break IMS tank, Hyper beadlocks, Holeshot MXR6's, TAG bars, cheetahs, T5/Fatty/DMC/whatever pipes, spark arrestors, Denton stabilizer-an all arounder that could be MX'd, duned, or GNCC'd (hey I'd do it heh))

 

Street (what the hell, all it would need outside the US is lights, signals and brake lights on the TT version...a chain-driven differential would be a plus...wonder if that could be built into that spider IRS hmm)

 

Desert (long travel 250R or Sundahl front end, King/Works/whatever shocks, longrod crank and cubs, Clarke tank, Stott's stabilizer, Fast Flex bars, PRM skids, reinforced rims, Holeshot XCR's with Tire Balls-Trinity's Sundahl without the Trinity...a trophy truck without the body)

 

I have a dream. Let's face it, EVERYTHING could be sourced from the aftermarket, with the exception of cases and transmission (RZ forks/drum would be the way to go). I'd be willing to bet that could be overcome fairly easily, I know of at least one source for gears and shafts (cryo? micro blue?). Who's to say Yamaha wouldn't sell some cases on the side, or that an independent couldn't duplicate them.

 

Maybe I'm way off on the ten large figure, maybe not, but with the right connections I think it's feasible (roughly $2500 motor, $2500 frame, $2500 suspension, $2500 everything else). Add up what you've got in yours (concidentally I've got $10,300 total in my '96 RZ-Banshee), or what's in a typical "production" racer. Take a look at MSRP's right now [shudder]. Consider what custom street bikes go for (WCC, OCC, etc.), and the niche they've carved, albeit a small one there's a market there. Imagine street legalness [drool]...or EFI...or aluminum frame...

 

Anyone remember the Rebel Star quad? Back in the day Last Rebel Racing teamed up with Lonestar to build a 250R (mid 90's somewhere after Honda threw in the towel), had a Rotax mill if I remember right...I wish I knew what happened there, if it was the price tag or total lack of marketing/advertising or Rotax stigma here in the states. Never saw one in real life, I remember the price was up there though. Cannondale started from the ground up, ATK owns them now...when was the last time you saw an ATK anything?! I keep going back to the Rebal Star thing though, it had to be that motor (as with Canny); no easy aftermarket support for a different pipe or replacement CDI, etc. etc. Not the case with the Banshee...nor the case for Evolution-based customs, and why I think they keep selling, it's based on a proven design that's had a hell of a following...

 

It's doable, question is, would anyone buy them? Straight up I suck at business, I don't have a mind for it, I'm a tech and a problem solver, not a people person. I work in parts every day, locating sources and negotiating prices, researching ROI and comparing products. I could literally set up every vendor, put every piece in one location, turn every nut and roll them off the line ready to go. I can't shmooze or network or sell (a social engineer I'm not). I just hate to see all the hard work that's gone into Banshee R&D by so many people go to waste, or fade into obscurity...when there's potential for so much more. Maybe there isn't, perhaps the reign of the two stroke really is over. Some of us die hard though.

 

Even if there was just ONE model to start with, one that took the very best there is in a package that would literally annihilate anything the other factories had to offer (it's not so far-fetched; I'd put money on a Leager Outlaw framed Cub against anything else close to stock, anywhere), would YOU drop 10K on it? What if you knew you could replace anything that you wanted to from a hundred different sources? What if you knew next year it would be even more badass? Or that you could have it built exactly how you wanted it? What would it really take??? I know one thing; that coveted green sticker in Kalifornia...possibly as much as 50% of the market in one state alone...surely there's a way around that.

 

I'm rambling, fuck it. I'd give my left nut to be able to say, "yeah I build Banshees for a livin'." Or "Four stroke, that's cute. Does it have a lawnmower attachment too?" Wait I already say that. Just not "pay up sucker" heh. Before long I bet I could tell you to the penny what it would cost and to the day how long it would take to build ten base units...

 

Gimme some feedback. I gotta get back to the salt mine, and my dickhead boss is probably callin'. I could use some opinions, whether it's constructive or advising I seek a little rubber room heh. Talk to me my brothas.

[MudSlinger09]

hell i think if there was a shitload of backing that it could take off quick ... maybe a stock form shee too lol

[trueraiderfan]

Shit man I would pay 10,000 for an 80plus hp bike that had bad ass suspension and tires and chit on it already. That sounds like a kick ass way to start a business. I am in sales myself I have sold cars and done finance for the last 6 years. All you would have to do to pass the emissions test is the same thing that suzuki does. And that is just run them lean real lean. Why the hell do ya think you have to put on the cherry bomb on the damn thing to make it run worth a chit. Hell we could do the same thing and the people could just re jet and go.

Edited July 27, 2006 by trueraiderfan

[warwgn]

Ok Ben dont forget that if you are buliding volume you can get parts for cheaper too, so 10k is probally right on the money after you figure in labor and overhead. Good idea but for now I will just keep looking for that lawn mower attachment!!!

[shanYE west]

I seen aftermarket cases.

Edited July 27, 2006 by fouledout2

[MudSlinger09]

nothin like good ol custom machine work

[Big Blue]

The billet cases are nice but for what he is talking about the $1900 price tag wont work, a cast is much cheaper.

[BlackBeast]

Interesting idea. Not sure how Yamaha would react, though. They might get upset and think you're stepping on thier pee-pee in terms of patents or copyrights on the design.

 

Of course, if they're not building it anyways, maybe they won't care.

 

-Tim

[tithead]

dont cascade inovations make cases????

 

if not... im sure if this was to happen... stan could get alot of business making them?

[BenBB]

hell i think if there was a shitload of backing that it could take off quick ... maybe a stock form shee too lol

Right, locating venture capital for a startup isn't my forte, I know it's out there though...

 

Shit man I would pay 10,000 for an 80plus hp bike that had bad ass suspension and tires and chit on it already. That sounds like a kick ass way to start a business. I am in sales myself I have sold cars and done finance for the last 6 years. All you would have to do to pass the emissions test is the same thing that suzuki does. And that is just run them lean real lean. Why the hell do ya think you have to put on the cherry bomb on the damn thing to make it run worth a chit. Hell we could do the same thing and the people could just re jet and go.

That's what I kept thinking, like "smog pumps" on cars when emissions regs first came out. Hell I don't know that you couldn't pass the test simply by using a synthetic premix oil. It's a little bit of a gray area when it comes down to who has to abide by what rules; like factories pumping out millions of cars compared to a homebuilt kit car, the factory stuff has to have 5mph bumpers, airbags, whatever, the kit car can get by with a 5-point harness...

 

Ok Ben dont forget that if you are buliding volume you can get parts for cheaper too, so 10k is probally right on the money after you figure in labor and overhead. Good idea but for now I will just keep looking for that lawn mower attachment!!!

LOL sorry Dustin!! I couldn't help thinking about Don's LT450R running out of fuel at the Rio Rancho race haha! At least his Rappy woulda finished heh. But you're exactly right, all the costs will go down once you can order in volume, freight and raw materials...

 

I seen aftermarket cases.

That is SICK!!! Who makes those?!!?!!!!

 

nothin like good ol custom machine work

No doubt, it's a work of art...

 

The billet cases are nice but for what he is talking about the $1900 price tag wont work, a cast is much cheaper.

Definitely, at list price anyway...there again volume and resale make some difference, as does quality and availability compared to what might come from OEM or non-OEM cast units. Would make for a damn nice option/base on the drag model though, looks stout as hell...

[BlackBeast]

Also something to consider... Why not start a small company and build just a few pilot models to see how they go over?

 

I've been researching DOT regulations for over two years trying to figure out how to get mine street legal, and came across a ton of useful info.

 

Starting up a business is actually easy, and would only cost a couple hundred bucks for the paperwork. From there, do a few quads with custom frames but use aftermarket parts for the complicated stuf... like motor and suspension. This way replacement parts are easy to come by.

 

Just look at S&S, OCC, West Coast Choppers, etc... They're basically making copycat Harleys with custom frames / bodywork.

 

If we have anyone that can build frames for us and issue an MSO (Manufacturer's Statement of Origin), you can issue a title for each one you build. I can help out with the legal issues for getting everything DOT approved.

 

What you do is get all of the paperwork done first, before you even build the first frame. That way you find out right away if everything is allowed before you spend any money on hardware.

 

Since mine is already street legal, I can use that for safety testing in the DOT paperwork.

 

In terms of emissions testing, the big problem there isn't so much with the oil, it's with the unburnt gas.

 

A catalytic converter of some sort might get it down within tolerances.

 

The other option is to actually go for a "motorcycle" classification. As of now, the laws are against this since it has 4 wheels, however there is a loophole.

 

The federal DOT regulations allow exemptions for safety standards if you can prove that your "new" design is a significant improvement over whatever the current standard is.

 

So you do a head-to-head comparison of a motorcycle, a trike, and my legalized Banshee in acceleration, cornering, and braking. Obviously the 'Shee will smoke the others because of more contact patch between the tires and asphalt and a lower center of gravity.

 

So you apply for the exemption, citing the fourth wheel as a "safety modification" to standard motorcycles, thus getting federal approval for a "moto-quad" design. At this point any manufacturer with an MSO can build street-legal frames.

 

Best of all, with federal approval, the individual states can't ban them anymore. Motorcycles are exempt from emissions testing, and thier safety requirements are much less stringent.

 

I've done my homework, trust me on this...

Edited July 27, 2006 by BlackBeast

[BenBB]

Interesting idea. Not sure how Yamaha would react, though. They might get upset and think you're stepping on thier pee-pee in terms of patents or copyrights on the design.

 

Of course, if they're not building it anyways, maybe they won't care.

 

-Tim

This is true, no telling what Yamaha would have to say about it, makes me wonder what HD thinks about WCC, or how Yamaha looks at, say Toomey or Lonestar. Alot probably depends on the scale, whether royalties are involved, trademarks used, etc. It's an extremely narrow niche though, who knows maybe even THEY would be interested in backing a subdivision for a cut (like Lexus to Toyota, or more akin to Harley & Buell).

 

dont cascade inovations make cases????

 

if not... im sure if this was to happen... stan could get alot of business making them?

Naturally, that was the first guy that came to mind for all the stuff he already makes...

[helldriver]

ahh very cool idea

 

i would have a trail or desert set up

 

 

hey man pitch that idea to a Yamaha rep,,,

who knows, geta petetion going,,,,

i'll be the first to sign it!!!

[BenBB]

Also something to consider... Why not start a small company and build just a few pilot models to see how they go over?

 

I've been researching DOT regulations for over two years trying to figure out how to get mine street legal, and came across a ton of useful info.

 

Starting up a business is actually easy, and would only cost a couple hundred bucks for the paperwork. From there, do a few quads with custom frames but use aftermarket parts for the complicated stuf... like motor and suspension. This way replacement parts are easy to come by.

 

Just look at S&S, OCC, West Coast Choppers, etc... They're basically making copycat Harleys with custom frames / bodywork.

 

If we have anyone that can build frames for us and issue an MSO (Manufacturer's Statement of Origin), you can issue a title for each one you build. I can help out with the legal issues for getting everything DOT approved.

 

What you do is get all of the paperwork done first, before you even build the first frame. That way you find out right away if everything is allowed before you spend any money on hardware.

 

Since mine is already street legal, I can use that for safety testing in the DOT paperwork.

 

In terms of emissions testing, the big problem there isn't so much with the oil, it's with the unburnt gas.

 

A catalytic converter of some sort might get it down within tolerances.

 

The other option is to actually go for a "motorcycle" classification. As of now, the laws are against this since it has 4 wheels, however there is a loophole.

 

The federal DOT regulations allow exemptions for safety standards if you can prove that your "new" design is a significant improvement over whatever the current standard is.

 

So you do a head-to-head comparison of a motorcycle, a trike, and my legalized Banshee in acceleration, cornering, and braking. Obviously the 'Shee will smoke the others because of more contact patch between the tires and asphalt and a lower center of gravity.

 

So you apply for the exemption, citing the fourth wheel as a "safety modification" to standard motorcycles, thus getting federal approval for a "moto-quad" design. At this point any manufacturer with an MSO can build street-legal frames.

 

Best of all, with federal approval, the individual states can't ban them anymore. Motorcycles are exempt from emissions testing, and thier safety requirements are much less stringent.

 

I've done my homework, trust me on this...

That is awesome BlackBeast. Much appreciated, I think it would be well worth persuing to make it street legal, even if on a limited basis.

 

I have zero business experience, and uhh $4.40 at the moment heh (unless you count the lint and paper clip-<sarcasm>). Thing is, I'd jump in with both feet if there's a chance it would work...if there was a way to do it on the side I'd try but I think it would need to be whole hog...

 

Right, that's the beauty of it; 99.99% of a Banshee can be built from aftermarket sources, RIGHT NOW. And even then they are all interchangable so if a guy got it with Brand X pipes he could easily swap them for FMFs or DMCs or whatever. Frames can be had (probably heh, they used to make them anyway) from Leager and Lonestar...I'd be willing to bet if we went with 250R geometry on the front end, or very close, all the TRX450R aftermarket stuff would fit. Since somebody makes cases, the only thing I can think of that's not commonly available from the aftermarket is gears & shafts (tranny, kicker, idler), forks, rails, shift drum, shift rod w/pawl...I don't see any of that stuff being difficult to have made elsewhere...

 

ahh very cool idea

 

i would have a trail or desert set up

hey man pitch that idea to a Yamaha rep,,,

who knows, geta petetion going,,,,

i'll be the first to sign it!!!

Doesn't somebody here work at a dealership? Any way to get a phone number for a Yamaha rep??

[DUNE-A-TIC]

Ben, I don't understand why Yamaha would have to be involved.They will not cease production of parts that sell.Sourcing is not a problem on anything else.Building the powerplant will be custom to each application anyways,correct?There are many connections out there that have the ability to build ground-up Banshees in any form.Keeping the Banshee alive(which is what your after i think)is not at all far fetched or difficult to obtain from my point of view.It would be gathering of needed suppliers and guarantee of production #'s to keep cost down for the end product"like a Shee".

 

 

 

Dune