EASTER

[Holyman]

And here is the point yet again... the scriptures you quoted say "if".

6)If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet wlk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice truth,7) but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So a person who says they are without sin cannot know if they are saved until they have faithfully endured to the end and God extends the mercy that is fitting.

Think about it. If a person can gain salvation and then purposely sin with no adverse effects God's whole system of right and wrong is useless. How can you imagine that God punishes willful sinners and at the same time rewards sinners with everlasting life?

I agree with the scriptures that show that God can put our sins as far away from us as the sunrise is from the sunset, but look at Psalm 103:17-19. It shows that those who fear him and are keeping his covenants are the ones that will have thrones in heaven.

In addition to this you are saying that...

They do indicate though that a Christian can be "taken out of action" so to speak. If they allow themselves to move away from the personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the devil can make them ineffective by making them non-witnesses to Christ.

 

If the devil can get you as a Christian to do nothing, he has won. He does not have your soul, but you will not be furthering the Kingdom of God.

How can the Devil win and yet the willful sinner gets the reward?

Sin is sin and willful sin deserves death.

(Ezekiel 18:4) 4 Look! All the souls-to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son-to me they belong. The soul that is sinning-it itself will die.

 

So you ask if I trust in Jesus for salvation or some Jesus and some of me.

The answer is salvation only belongs to God. He alone allowed his son to make this great sacrifice on our behalf, and only he can decide who he wants to extend that salvation to. I guess the difference between me and other "christians" is that I want to demonstrate on a daily basis that I appreciate this great sacrifice and I want others to be able to see a difference between a genuine christian and one who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. I love God and his son and like the love I profess for my wife, there should never be any doubt by anyone whether that love is real or not. A "christian" who says they are saved and then goes on to commit willful sin has abandoned everything Jesus stands for and they deserve death, permanent, final, irreversable death. Fortunately, God is the one who can read hearts and make that determination.

[banshee04le]

I guess the difference between me and other "christians" is that I want to demonstrate on a daily basis that I appreciate this great sacrifice and I want others to be able to see a difference between a genuine christian and one who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

 

Ok, so you don't trouble yourself to do for others (gifts/candy) on Christmas or Easter.

That's easy, I could do that. It would save me time, money and stress.

You don't vote. That's easy too. It's a pain in the ass to get to the poles anyway.

By the way, what do you have to say about RJV's find in the scriptures that goes

against your "easy way out" theory on voting? Here it is again:

As to the president, 1Peter 2:13-17

 

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as teh one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignoracne of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all men; love the brother hood, fear God honor the king.

 

Ok, back to my original point. You don't vote or celebrate Easter or Christmas...convenient, but what else are you doing that justifies your holier than

thou attitude? Can you document an appreciable amount of charity work?

Can you document that you give at least 10% of your earnings to a church of God?

Is there anything else you do to serve God that inconveniences you, because everything so far seems pretty convenient.

[Holyman]

Ok, so you don't trouble yourself to do for others (gifts/candy) on Christmas or Easter.

That's easy, I could do that. It would save me time, money and stress.

You don't vote. That's easy too. It's a pain in the ass to get to the poles anyway.

By the way, what do you have to say about RJV's find in the scriptures that goes

against your "easy way out" theory on voting? Here it is again:

 

QUOTE

As to the president, 1Peter 2:13-17

 

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as teh one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignoracne of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all men; love the brother hood, fear God honor the king.

 

From the very begining, God has never transfered his rights to anyone else. He has commanded that obedience be paid to the governing authorities of the world as long as those authorities do not conflict with God's commands. From the times of Egypt God allowed his people to be under the rulership of unrighteous rulers but only until they went beyond his righteous standards. Then he would rescue them. In fact it is more often the case that even these immoral rulers would be blessed when they treated God's servants well and when they tolerated the worship that was given exclusively to God. Whenever there was a conflict between the 2, God comes first. In fact when Peter and the other apostles were faced with a demand by the leaders of their day, Peter said... (Acts 5:29) 29

[banshee04le]

This could not be more clear. Nothing you have said refutes this.

As to the president, 1Peter 2:13-17

 

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as teh one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignoracne of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all men; love the brother hood, fear God honor the king.

 

Of course, as

Peter said... (Acts 5:29) 29 In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said:

[Holyman]

Let me walk you thru this...

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as teh one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignoracne of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all men; love the brother hood, fear God honor the king.

Submit yourself for the lords sake. That means as long as it is approved by the Lord, submit yourself.

... to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors. This means the proper authorities in the place where you reside and the governments in the country you reside in.

... as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. This means the governments are there to provide punishment for wrongdoing and commendation for those who follow the law.

... For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Gods wants his followers to be obedient to the authorities so that his people cannot be accused of being against organization and so his followers will not be lumped together as trouble makers.

... Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. We are all free to decide for ourselves what we want to do but God wants us to use our free will to slave for Him and not as an excuse for evil doing.

... Honor all men; love the brother hood, fear God honor the king. Pretty self explanitory here. What you don't find in this scripture is the requirement to obey the ruling authorities in all things. For example, Chritians in Germany were under no obligation to obey Hitler, Christians in Korea are under no obligation to drop nuclear bombs on the US, Christians in Afghanistan are under no obligation to poison their fellow man with chemical weapons, Christians in America are under no obligation to go to these other countries and kill the equally mislead christians on the other side. Again, the rulers of the world are just what Jesus said his followers would NOT be... part of the world. (John 15:18-21) 18 If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. 20 Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also; if they have observed my word, they will observe YOURS also. 21 But they will do all these things against YOU on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me.

Christians should see that not only do the rulers of the world in general not like them, they will actively persecute them if they adhere too closely to Jesus' example.

 

Peter said... (Acts 5:29) 29 In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said:

[banshee04le]

Man, you sure go a long way to turn things around to justify your "easy way out"

theories. Now, let me walk YOU through it:

Submit yourself for the lords sake. That means as long as it is approved by the Lord, submit yourself.

... to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors. This means the proper authorities in the place where you reside and the governments in the country you reside in.

Submit yourself for the lords sake to every human institution. That is plain as day.

If you are compelled, by your heart and faith in Jesus, to right a wrong or correct an inequity, then God says that is ok to vote or even run for political office.

... as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. This means the governments are there to provide punishment for wrongdoing and commendation for those who follow the law.

This says that God acts

through men and you should not turn a blind eye, but rather support the righteous

candidate.

... For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Gods wants his followers to be obedient to the authorities so that his people cannot be accused of being against organization and so his followers will not be lumped together as trouble makers.

For such is the will of God that by doing right (in human institutions...vote or run for

office) you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. It doesn't say to be silently obedient so as not to be a trouble maker.

 

... Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. We are all free to decide for ourselves what we want to do but God wants us to use our free will to slave for Him and not as an excuse for evil doing.

Act as free men. Free men VOTE! God acts through people. Support the righteous candidate or BE one for that matter.

... Honor all men; love the brother hood, fear God honor the king. Pretty self explanitory here.

Yep. So is the rest of it.

 

Now what about gifts?

The scripture you are quoting is helping people to see that followers of God will be accused of all sorts of stupid, inaccurate things like not giving gifts to their kids. This scriptures shows that even a rotten man will give his child good gifts and since God can never be rotten in any way, he gives the best gifts... to those asking.

It is NOT saying that "followers of God will be accused of all sorts of stupid inaccurate things like not giving gifts to their kids." It says that of course a man would and should gift his children as they need, just as God will gift HIS children as

THEY need. The more important point is the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Again I ask, did you receive Christmas gifts as a child?

[Holyman]

My parents were nazi skinheads and I got gifts on Hitlers brithday. I got the linching playset with little plastic black kids and the gas chamber playset with jews, gays and gypsies. It doesn't matter what I got and when I got it does it? In fact, Hitler was also "saved" and during his reign of terror, he was never expelled from the Catholic church. He was also the authority in that whole region at the time. Did God approve him? Afterall the church supported him and even had a papal "hands off" agreement with him.

 

Submit yourself for the lords sake to every human institution. That is plain as day.

If you are compelled, by your heart and faith in Jesus, to right a wrong or correct an inequity, then God says that is ok to vote or even run for political office.

I don't know how you made the quantum leap from "submit yourself for the Lords sake" which means submit yourself for the benefit of the Lord to run out and vote for a human. Following your heart is a common idea among all kinds of people today but the bible says just the opposite. (Jeremiah 17:9) 9 "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?

And knowing that Jesus' followers would be no part of the world, you still recommend that followers of Jesus should immerse themselves in the world. What about all the "christians" who voted the opposite of the resulting outcome? In all the elections from this country's beginning, "christians" have voted for both sides. How have they done gods will by expending themselves to elect the opposite person who wins? First of all, there is no indication that God ever needed an election to install the person of his choice in any position. He put David, a lowly shepherd, as king of his nation. He used Moses the throw away child of a slave to lead his nation. He made Joseph 2nd in command of a world power. And thru all of this he never held 1 election. God doesn't ask peoples opinion before putting someone into a position he wants them in. He is God, he does what he wants and doesn't need any human help at all.

 

It's amazing to me that you can read scriptures that tell christians to be no part of the world, that the world is under the power of the wicked one, that the rulers of the world will be destroyed by God's kingdom, that God's followers should not put trust in human rulers who have no way to bring salvation, that Satan acknowledges he has rulership over the world and you still suggest that burying yourself in every activity of the world is somehow acceptable.

A few more scritures for you...

(Luke 4:5-8) 5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: "I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. 7 You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours." 8 In reply Jesus said to him: "It is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"

Intersting how Jesus said you must only render sacred service to God and not the world.

(1 John 2:15-17) 15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world-the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one's means of life-does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.

 

Speaking of the time just before God destroys wickness, {notice the "signs of the times"} the bible says that all will hate god's people...

(Mark 13:8-13) 8 "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, there will be earthquakes in one place after another, there will be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress. 9 "As for YOU, look out for yourselves; people will deliver YOU up to local courts, and YOU will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them. 10 Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first. 11 But when they are leading YOU along to deliver YOU up, do not be anxious beforehand about what to speak; but whatever is given YOU in that hour, speak this, for YOU are not the ones speaking, but the holy spirit is. 12 Furthermore, brother will deliver brother over to death, and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death; 13 and YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

Are you saying that these courts and nations and "all people" have been put there by God to torture and kill his own obedient children?

 

I admire your dedication to the thoughts you've developed. But when the Bible says to do all things for the sake of the Lord, and you tell me that means to go and vote for someone whose every action goes against what the Lord stands for, I'm hard pressed to go along with that.

[banshee04le]

As I said before, I refuse to get into a battle of theology with you because there is too much semantics (language interpretation) involved to declare victory, which therefore leads to self righteousness.

However God DOES act through man (at this time) and I still contend that the scripture that RJV divinely located clearly indicates that God wants his followers to represent the will of God "in every human institution".

My only other point is the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And so...

My parents were nazi skinheads and I got gifts on Hitlers brithday. I got the linching playset with little plastic black kids and the gas chamber playset with jews, gays and gypsies.

[locogato11283]

this topic sucks!!

[Holyman]

I can see that you do not want to get into a discussion on the meanings of words because you like to dream up your own understanding and apply it to words of your choice.

For example, you say that "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution" means "God wants his followers to represent the will of God "in every human intitution"."

So you don't know or want to know what "submit" means.

Anyone should be able to read this simple sentance and come to the understanding of what it says...

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as teh one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignoracne of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all men; love the brother hood, fear God honor the king.

Put yourselves under the authority of every human institution {An established organization or foundation, especially one dedicated to education, public service, or culture.} for the sake {Also for one's sake. Out of consideration or regard for a person or thing; for someone's or something's advantage or good.} of the Lord. Why are they allowed to have this authority??? "for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right". It's not hard to read what is actually there and understand it.

 

yes it does matter "what you got and when you got it".

It doesn't matter to me and it shouldn't matter to you. Are you going to send me gifts for Christmas now? Should I tell you what I want or are you going to just put the receipt in the bag? Better yet, just send cash. Jesus would want it that way

[banshee04le]

you like to dream up your own understanding

Aren't you speaking with a forked tongue here?

It doesn't matter to me and it shouldn't matter to you. Are you going to send me gifts for Christmas now? Should I tell you what I want or are you going to just put the receipt in the bag? Better yet, just send cash. Jesus would want it that way

All that I am saying is that if you have fond memories of Christmas or Easter as a child, then you should "do unto" your children the same. God would not forsake you for that, for it is the Golden Rule.

[RNBRAD]

Interesting stuff and beliefs no doubt. No wonder there is 100's of denominations in this world. Everyone interprets God's word in a different way (This was talked about in the bible, the pastors that scattered the sheep and destroyes the pasture of Chirst). A lot of people believe what they want to believe. Obviously the bible states it is not for personal interpretation. This meaning what? Who interprets it? There is only one correct interpretation. Who has the authority to interpret his word? Are all the religions of the world directed, counciled, lead by Jesus Christ to this day? If it's not lead, directed and counciled by Jesus Christ then who is leading it? Will the devil give you 9 truths to get in one lie? Things to ponder when seeking for salvation.

 

Those who believe that once your baptised or "saved" need to read Mathew 7:21-23, 15:7-9, 24:13. We must all live the will of the father and endure to the end, sincere belief is not enough to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

Most of this stems from a (mis)interpretation of John 3:15-18 that all you have to do to be saved is believe in Jesus Christ and you will have everlasting life. John 14:21 states that you must repent of your sins and be baptised from one having authority in order to recieve complete salvation. So really those two scriptures refute each other.

[bogart]

God Creates Everything

Adam and Eve Mess Up

Generations try to be good enough and fail.

Mary concieves as a virgin

Jesus Christ is born

He grows fullfilling all the prophecy about the coming saviour

At 33 years old, his own people turn on him.

He is murdered on a cross, an innocent and sinless man.

The penalty for all the sins of humanity is paid in full

3 days later he rises from the grave

Today we have hope.

All we have to do is accept him.

 

"For God so loved the world, he gave his Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.  God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him"......

A quote from Jesus as he explains who he is and the plan of salvation to Nicodemus in John chapter three.

Just thought I would throw this out since it is Easter Weekend.  Have a great day everyone, hopefully with good food and good company.

 

RJV

345685[/snapback]

blah blah

[Holyman]

All that I am saying is that if you have fond memories of Christmas or Easter as a child, then you should "do unto" your children the same.

Maybe you should listen to one of Tori Amos' songs. Obviously she was being raped while everyone else downstairs was singing and praying. Sounds like a great time. I guess since they are all saved, Tori is just outta luck. Now if it turns out she liked it, should she "do unto" her kids? Of course that would not be the case.

The fact remains that it doesn't matter whether we enjoy something or not. It matters whether God approves of it or not. If we are doing something just to please each other with no regard for God's laws on the matter, we are not slaves of Christ and thus purposely fail to please God... (Galatians 1:10-12) 10

[banshee04le]

Do you or do you not have fond memories of Christmas and Easter as a child?

Whether you realize it or not, your first introduction to Jesus most likely came from the stories associated with Christmas and Easter, which for the most part ARE NOT biblically incorrect. At least that is the case for millions of children around the world.

It is accepted that the seasonal dates of Christmas and Easter coincide with ancient

pagan celebrations. What makes you so sure that it wasn't God's WILL for Christians to implement the Christmas and Easter observations in order to help with the crossing over to the better understanding of Christianity? I agree that God did not approve of the old

pagan celebrations but I do not see how you draw the parallel to Christmas and Easter.

Perhaps people that do NOT believe in Christ should not recognize Christmas or Easter, but the fact that many do does not detract from the glory God receives from good Christians around the world who convene at these times for that reason.

I don't need a garage full of bunny posters, plastic candles, a million miles of twinkle lights, chocolate, jelly beans, or hardboiled egss to be happy. I hope you agree.

I don't need that stuff either but the children do. If all Christians were like you expouse they should be, then Christianity would be DEAD. All people are worthy of God's love and God would like to reach them all but the fact is that many people will never be reached by someone who is seen as a "holy roller". God works in

mysterious ways. I hope you agree.