sicivicdude Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Actually , the industry standard definition of the words in question are what i cut and pasted. No where in a legitimate two stroke tech article or forum will you see the term "predetonation" used...But i do know what you were trying to say,and do appreciate the info shared. The reason i even brought this up is, if we are going to share ideas on technical subjects,we need to adhere to the PROPER (industry standard)definitions and terminology so we are all on the same page. And Merriam Webster IS NOT the final word in defining two stroke terminology. Unless Webster was a gearhead! haha Agreed, I doubt "Webster" was a gearhead.... Let's just agree that all references to "predetonation" listed apply to all forms of negative parasitic ignition events that are not initiated by the ignition system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 This thread sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sicivicdude Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I have no idea what that means It just means that an spark ignited engine is supposed to be "fired" by the spark plug. Other things can start the ignition event other than the ignition system. Basically, all other sources of ignition (also know as preignition @ sprinklerman) are negative and cause a loss of power or engine longevity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKheathen Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm assuming that you are referring to my seemingly incorrect grammar. If not, please elaborate on your concern. It can also be pre-detonation as the "pre" is a prefix (note prefix DOESN'T use the hyphen), however it is not incorrect to use the term as "predetonation" either. You MUST use the hyphen before anything starting with an "e" but it NOT required before a consonant. Let's not get bogged down in grammar class, however. The point is, there is A LOT going on inside of a combustion chamber while an engine is running. Really, the two threads I've posted are just a "primer" to the real processes anyway in an effort to avoid confusion. not a grammar lesson. pre-detonation is a made-up word, and has no definition.... well, maybe in the urban dictionary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKheathen Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 It just means that an spark ignited engine is supposed to be "fired" by the spark plug. Other things can start the ignition event other than the ignition system. Basically, all other sources of ignition (also know as preignition @ sprinklerman) are negative and cause a loss of power or engine longevity. DIG MAN DIIIIIGGGG!!!! im not a grammer expert,,believe me. what im refering to is the fact that is simply detonation..not "pre detonation) detonation,by its very definition is this (cut and paste) > Detonation Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug. Pre-ignition Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon. So you see, there IS no such thing as "pre" detonation. Im not trying to nit-pick you,im just asking that when great info is being dispensed ,that it be accurate. The point of dispensing info is to educate guys like me and others,,so lets make sure we are being educated with ACCURTE info. Thats all im saying. Honestly,Thanks again! actually, detonation can occour after any ingnition, which would include, and actually most likely to occour with, pre-ignition. simply, an abnormal burn. I see what you are referring to but take a look at the Merriam Webster (arguably the final point in all definition arguments) definition: Detonation: 1 : the action or process of detonating 2 : rapid combustion in an internal combustion engine that results in knocking According to their definition, we are both incorrect and the detonation is actually the event you refer to as "pre-ignition" and I am referring to as "predetonation"..... How about we chock that up to a grey area as far as the terms are concerned? Is it safe to say that we can assume that all references in the information listed above to "predetonation" are referring to "detonation" as in the harmful "preignition" of the fuel and air mixture before the normal timed ignition event by the spark plug? :facepalm: Agreed, I doubt "Webster" was a gearhead.... Let's just agree that all references to "predetonation" listed apply to all forms of negative parasitic ignition events that are not initiated by the ignition system. no. nobody who actually knows this stuff will ever agree with you that pre-detonation has any merrit as a word/term This thread sucks. i support this message. I have no idea what that means don't worry. he doesn't either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blast off Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 hahahahaha, Hilarious. Some good info here, just dont read the "pre-detonation" part and you will be ok lol. you guys are funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcardracing Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I suppose we could come up with a definition for pre-detonation, but it would be defined as the events leading up to detonation. Not a terrible write-up. But one must be careful about terminology. Websters definitions would be too broad for our use. "Our" defininitions being directly related to spark ignited internal combustion engines, and more specific 2 strokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKheathen Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 you should read his other threads. you will see how off he is in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sicivicdude Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 you should read his other threads. you will see how off he is in general. It is easy to tear down someone else, not so easy to express it yourself and I can see how forthcoming you are with your ....er..... vast technical knowledge. You simply tore down what I tried to make relatively simple and easy (IER!) to understand for folks who have no understanding about how it works and offered NO information at all about the subject matter. I defined a term incorrectly and was "taken to task" for it. I don't have a problem at all with someone adding to or even correcting the information available so that everyone has a better understanding (including myself) of the "how" and "why" of it but to simply tear it apart because of one ill defined term is quite narrow minded. While the Webster definition is obviously not as specific as what engine builders will deal with, it nonetheless highlights how undefined the terms are across the board. I didn't aid in this ambiguity any by defining the term incorrectly myself but you can see how easy it is to make the mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 pretty much all the modern" ( 1960- 1980's ) DOME shapes suck. what little "programs" i have seen and used cannot be setup to have a "decent" dome shape. mostly be cause they are all based off of those books results using low hp low tq engines. you can have parameters all over the place and the MSV can be the same... i'd love to see a factory involvement in multiple shapes and differnt desins using multiple angles and different radius edge's.... just my opinion. i have "stubled" upon a shape i have never seen that seems to be working amazingly well.. but it's "numbers" and shape profile would result in all kinds of bullshit.. so i'll just keep them to myself.. and the wording "pre-ignition" had me wondering what the heck was going on also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKheathen Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 sorry, but you obviously seem to be the one here with enough time to actually go and do the proper research, yet rather spend it "teaching" what you are not too versed/seasoned on. i have spent more days than i dare to think of not only researching, testing, and applying, but discussing such knowledge and hundreds of long write-ups, and inserts all over the site. it is apparent that you will not look around and find out for yourself. fact of the matter, is that i just gave up on you. i see where this is going, and as much effort as you put into "being right" about a simple term correction points to the fact that it will be nothing but a huge time consuming battle. if you really want to know, do a damn search. i spend 80hr/week putting my experience and knowledge to work for a living, and then spend the rest on the family, electronics repair, and projects whenever i can fit. and, i'm stil finding some time to come and help people as much as i can. in sort, not really much time for your bs. i just want to point things out for others at this time. btw, if you really tried to break the subject down to make it easier, it would be a single post with much lighter reading. and, yes, it is easy for someone to make that mistake, if they incorrectly remembered hearing both detonation and pre-ignition form someone who at least has a workable knowledge as a mechanic, etc. simple NOOB mistake. i'll get back with a good insert on the matter when i find the time on r&r. i'm not gonna half-ass a quickie. btw, cam, you got my curiosity..... i've also came up with some modified designs based on combustion heat patterns. i don't have a dyno, but the results are real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 welp then start a topic and lets talk about it! screw this thread! since all the "builders" want to keep dome desing HUSH HUSH phhhhh maybe some of us home brew dudes can see whats up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colby Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 stupid 2 stroke builders hiding their secrets ... but when someone finally lets a good secret go, even the ones that complain about others taking credit for their work will be the first to try someone else's.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfrjag Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 camatv you just said you have a head profile that you were going to keep secret.. if people are going to start sharing maybe you could start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 i would if someone asked. but i wont in this thread. its not about head desing i am thinking its mostly about a blaster head and the somewhat accurate description of how and what the head desing does. heck i can go get one of my 2 stroke books that anyone can buy and re type the chapter on dome design. but having an understanding and what i would call the willingness to actually TRY whats suggested in them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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