Bansh-eman Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 since the original question was answered and eveyrone is willing.. i'll keep going. Exactly my point... With out no hard evidance.. its therory.. and a therory is a educated opinion untill is proven a fact. Until you can prove (with hard evidance) there is a significant load reduction on the bearings that would create a noticeable increase in bearing life .. then your statements are theory. Is there extended bearing life?? maybe... I never said there wasn't.. I just said it would be minimal if any and it is not a key benifit to using the long rod. And thats my "theory" on that. Now heres my theory on this.. as far as direct force.. it does matter if its a rotating assembly.. the only DIRECT force on the bearings/rod is at TDC and BDC --> ------- <--- is a dricet force.. you move that rod in the middle.. Its no longer direct and the crank will spin and there is no more force on the bearings because there is no resistance.. to have force on a part... there must be resistance. What generates the force on the bearings? resistance.. where is the resistance? Compression. then the rod angle has no affect on the load of the wrist pin and neeldle bearings. Force is applied directly to the piston (from compression) and from the piston DIRECTLY to the wrist pin and bearing. the needle bearings are designed to take the force from all angles.. where does rod angle come into play here? remember.. physics stats for every action there is a opposite and equal reaction... force is applied directly (opposite and equal) I also highlighted a part in your quote that has to do with the law. les angle.. equals less dirct force on the sidewalls.. Compression is your constant force.. if compression remains the same (constant) unless compression is changed.. the angle of the rod will not change the amount of force applied.. only the angle at which it is applied (hence.. less side wall force)... the bearings are designed to take loads from any angle and the load on the bearings will not change until compression is changed. 165psi is 165psi.. it dont matter what angle.. Force does not have to be applied perpendicular to an object for it to have an effect. By reducing the angle the force is being applied doesn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Can someone please call Bill Nuy and Gary Ed Mach to settle this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Force does not have to be applied perpendicular to an object for it to have an effect. By reducing the angle the force is being applied doesn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansh-eman Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Once again.. changing the rod angle will not lessen the load on the bearings.. only the angle at which the load is applied.. simple as that.. the force does not dissapear.. it does not lessen or get reduced. As long as the resistance is the same.. the load on the bearings will stay the same. Your wrong, plain and simple. If you reduce the angle that the rod is at the amount of force being applied is reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 By reducing the angle the force is being applied doesn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansh-eman Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Ok do this. Grab a broom stick. Stand over a scale and push straight down. Then tilt the stick and push straight down again trying to exert the same force down. Not at an angle towards the stick, down just like the force of the piston is being transferred. Although it will be pretty freaking hard to know your putting the same force you will get an idea. You will not exert the same force being transferred to the opposite end of the stick. Same concept. The pistons job is to turn heat energy into mechanical energy to be harvested by the crank to turn the wheels. The piston goes in one direction in the cylinder, down. So there for the force being applied goes down. Try the scale and you will see. Got to head back to work... bbl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Ok do this. Grab a broom stick. Stand over a scale and push straight down. Then tilt the stick and push straight down again trying to exert the same force down. Not at an angle towards the stick, down just like the force of the piston is being transferred. Although it will be pretty freaking hard to know your putting the same force you will get an idea. You will not exert the same force being transferred to the opposite end of the stick. Same concept. The pistons job is to turn heat energy into mechanical energy to be harvested by the crank to turn the wheels. The piston goes in one direction in the cylinder, down. So there for the force being applied goes down. Try the scale and you will see. Got to head back to work... bbl. LOL Really?? are you serious?? You just proved my point!!! That whole reference was referring to the mechanical advantage of the long rods and does not change the force or reduce the amount force. It simply reduces the EFFORT (Mechanical effort) to apply it. ok.. I'll use your broom stick approach. to prove the load doesn't change or get reduced. Take your broom and tie 100lb bucket of rocks to the end. Now stand on a scale and point that broom straight over your head. Does the scale read 100lbs over your weight? it should.. lol Now take the broom and angle it. does it still read 100lbs over your weight.. probably so. Now was it harder to hold it out at a angle compared to straight up? Probably.. but did the scale ever read less due to the angle?? NOPE! What your referring to is a reduction in mechanical effort.. not a reduction in force on the bearings... I wont comment on your last paragraph about the pistons job to turn heat energy to mechanical energy.. you'll have people heating their pistons with torches to increase power.. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2strokesmoker Posted May 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 LOL Really?? are you serious?? You just proved my point!!! That whole reference was referring to the mechanical advantage of the long rods and does not change the force or reduce the amount force. It simply reduces the EFFORT (Mechanical effort) to apply it. ok.. I'll use your broom stick approach. to prove the load doesn't change or get reduced. Take your broom and tie 100lb bucket of rocks to the end. Now stand on a scale and point that broom straight over your head. Does the scale read 100lbs over your weight? it should.. lol Now take the broom and angle it. does it still read 100lbs over your weight.. probably so. Now was it harder to hold it out at a angle compared to straight up? Probably.. but did the scale ever read less due to the angle?? NOPE! What your referring to is a reduction in mechanical effort.. not a reduction in force on the bearings... I wont comment on your last paragraph about the pistons job to turn heat energy to mechanical energy.. you'll have people heating their pistons with torches to increase power.. lol Seriously I think this is getting out of hand......... :yelrotflmao: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Seriously I think this is getting out of hand......... :yelrotflmao: I made my point. NOW i'm done.. :biggrin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansh-eman Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 LOL Really?? are you serious?? You just proved my point!!! That whole reference was referring to the mechanical advantage of the long rods and does not change the force or reduce the amount force. It simply reduces the EFFORT (Mechanical effort) to apply it. ok.. I'll use your broom stick approach. to prove the load doesn't change or get reduced. Take your broom and tie 100lb bucket of rocks to the end. Now stand on a scale and point that broom straight over your head. Does the scale read 100lbs over your weight? it should.. lol Now take the broom and angle it. does it still read 100lbs over your weight.. probably so. Now was it harder to hold it out at a angle compared to straight up? Probably.. but did the scale ever read less due to the angle?? NOPE! What your referring to is a reduction in mechanical effort.. not a reduction in force on the bearings... I wont comment on your last paragraph about the pistons job to turn heat energy to mechanical energy.. you'll have people heating their pistons with torches to increase power.. lol Please tell me you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spurdy Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I hope someone is enjoying this! I just can't read anymore! I vote for "force applied to bearings lessen as the angle is reduced". Ignition happens prior to TDC however effective burn isn't immediate. Thus the reason for advanced timing so that effective burn is complemented with the downward stroke of the piston. This is one effect of detonation! This is why detonation destroys cranks and fucks up pistons because load is reduced as the angle lessens. SP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Please tell me you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 " If you lessen the angel that the force is being applied," Great...now you two are gonna start a holy war n shit...just great. :biggrin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWR Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 sir isaac newton is spinning in his grave.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Performance Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 " If you lessen the angel that the force is being applied," Great...now you two are gonna start a holy war n shit...just great. :biggrin: :yelrotflmao: :yelrotflmao: Im not one to take sides at all. Ive stated than on many arguments before. But in the end, the same ammount of force is being applied to the bearings. Just because the rod is at a different angle, the load on the "bearings" will stay the same. I see where greg is trying to go with this, but realistically in the end, the highest amount of force applied is when the stroke is at TDC on the compression stroke (depending on how the timing is set). No matter what, that is when the most amount of force/energy is going to be transfered from the piston to the pin to the needles bearings to the rod thourgh another needle bearing and onto the crank......period. And by changing the rod length, thus BARELY changing the rod angle, the presure applied to the bearings throughout the rest of the stroke is only going to change at what degree it is appplied to the bearings. We all agree that the longer rod will help improve piston life by giving less side load to the skirt of the piston. And I hope we all agree that you should have longer rod life due to it being more perpendicular on the compression stroke. Now stop argueing ya bunch of know it alls :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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