blowit Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 (edited) so you were stupid a couple months ago and now you can make one off custom pistons?? wow, youve really progressed. I did not realize this Loco. I would say that unless someone can offer FIA (finite element analysis) on a piston design, eccentricity of the pistons would just be a guess and making them concentric would just be a mistake. This does not even account for the forging process which is certainly not like cutting from billet. We have designed a few but the equipment would be a LARGE investment, not to mention the tolerance we would need to hold. In order to maintain a .0001" tolerance, you need a machine that repeats at about .00003". Thermal comp of the machine, ambient temp, humidity, etc, all play a roll here too. Brandon Edited April 6, 2009 by blowit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 i need to find somebody that costom orders pistons i got a kawasaki bike with discontinued pistons and i cant find wiescos Your best bet is you determine all the critical dims of your existing pistons and see if wiseco can match it up with something close. You may also need to go back with OEM pistons if they are available. Nothing wrong with cast pistons! Having pistons custom made would likely be out of SIGHT in price. The price indicated already would not even touch what some mfgs would charge that actually make pistons. 2 stroke throws even more in the mix here. Trust me, if all else fails, you will haveto talk with wiseco or someone and get a comparable piston from a jetski, snow ski, etc. brandon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 can you give us an explaination on the manufacturing process involved in making these custom pistons.i for one would be really interested in hearing how you make them! are you the same guy that was asking about forged pistons versus stock ones? you thought "forged" meant they were knock-offs? I am also interested in the process this guy will use to make the pistons............ As some of us on here know how to make pistons and understand the huge equipment investment required to make real piston and not something that just looks like a piston................ I call BS on this guy without hearing anything further. :biggrin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I did not realize this Loco. I would say that unless someone can offer FIA (finite element analysis) on a piston design, eccentricity of the pistons would just be a guess and making them concentric would just be a mistake. This does not even account for the forging process which is certainly not like cutting from billet. We have designed a few but the equipment would be a LARGE investment, not to mention the tolerance we would need to hold. In order to maintain a .0001" tolerance, you need a machine that repeats at about .00003". Thermal comp of the machine, ambient temp, humidity, etc, all play a roll here too. Brandon Word. FEA is probably necessary.......... and cam turning the pistons is 100% necessary. As most folks know, pistons are not round, they are made of a series of concentric elipses, which requires a cam turning machine or a turn-mill to manufacture them properly. I have designed and manufactured more racing pistons than I want to remember, and because of that experience I can tell you that there are some major reasons why there are not many folks out there who make pistons. :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Word. FEA is probably necessary.......... and cam turning the pistons is 100% necessary. As most folks know, pistons are not round, they are made of a series of concentric elipses, which requires a cam turning machine or a turn-mill to manufacture them properly. I have designed and manufactured more racing pistons than I want to remember, and because of that experience I can tell you that there are some major reasons why there are not many folks out there who make pistons. :laugh: What are your machine requirement minimums for small run pistons? ie, can a mill-turn lathe be slowed down and pampered along to get the job done for low quantity mfg? I will admit holding .0001" OD will be tough. I have, however, been told never to grind in the lathe but we have done it about 5000 times now on an aero part and hold .0001" on that part. It is, however, a round part. GD grinding is a whole nuther industry in itself! We thought about trying to obtain forging blanks to have on hand for experimental piston mfg. Likely not worth the investmet since the piston only covers one aspect. Rings, wrist pin, and clips need to be sourced or bought too. No wonder companies focus solely on pistons, and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duneman101 Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 what is the year make and model of the bike, has it been bored? Is it the kawi in your sig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250Rho Posted April 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 yea its the kz 305 csr in the sig its 1982 the bore is still stock but kawi discontinued the stock ones. i wonder if oversize kz 500 pistons would do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duneman101 Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 yea its the kz 305 csr in the sig its 1982 the bore is still stock but kawi discontinued the stock ones. i wonder if oversize kz 500 pistons would do it No the 500 won't work, the bore was bigger, the stroke was the same though. try this website. http://www.kawasakipartsnation.com/pages/p...42/default.aspx as far as i can tell they still have pistons and everything instock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 No the 500 won't work, the bore was bigger, the stroke was the same though. try this website. http://www.kawasakipartsnation.com/pages/p...42/default.aspx as far as i can tell they still have pistons and everything instock. Looks pretty easy to me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 What are your machine requirement minimums for small run pistons? ie, can a mill-turn lathe be slowed down and pampered along to get the job done for low quantity mfg? I will admit holding .0001" OD will be tough. I have, however, been told never to grind in the lathe but we have done it about 5000 times now on an aero part and hold .0001" on that part. It is, however, a round part. GD grinding is a whole nuther industry in itself! We thought about trying to obtain forging blanks to have on hand for experimental piston mfg. Likely not worth the investmet since the piston only covers one aspect. Rings, wrist pin, and clips need to be sourced or bought too. No wonder companies focus solely on pistons, and nothing else. Most mill-turns can run slow enough to get the job done. It's definitely not the fast way to do things, as an eccentric lathe would be the large quantity manufacturing solution. It's not so much about holding OD tolerance, as it is about holding TIR. Tool post grinding on a lathe is always fun to do and can be done with fairly high accuracy if the operator is skilled enough. There are not all that many piston manufacturers out there these days. Most of the smaller companies are highly specialized or are in the process of going out of business. For special one-off stuff, Wiseco, Mahle, JE, and CP all have good proto-type departments. The owner of CP and I are pretty good friends, so I can get stuff done there easier than me doing it myself, but I don't think CP will touch a two stroke piston project from the general public. :geek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Most mill-turns can run slow enough to get the job done. It's definitely not the fast way to do things, as an eccentric lathe would be the large quantity manufacturing solution. It's not so much about holding OD tolerance, as it is about holding TIR. Tool post grinding on a lathe is always fun to do and can be done with fairly high accuracy if the operator is skilled enough. There are not all that many piston manufacturers out there these days. Most of the smaller companies are highly specialized or are in the process of going out of business. For special one-off stuff, Wiseco, Mahle, JE, and CP all have good proto-type departments. The owner of CP and I are pretty good friends, so I can get stuff done there easier than me doing it myself, but I don't think CP will touch a two stroke piston project from the general public. :geek: I think the forged blanks has been a problem for us in the past. I heard we are better off designing the tool and the rough blank and going to a forging company than talking with a piston company but I get a little worried with quality. We probably have 10 conceptual piston designs saved but can not moved on them because of the mfg side of things. I have not followed up with Mahle lately but they usually only start listening at about 10,000 pieces so not sure if our businesses will align well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stroker Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 i drew up an over size KX500 piston for a buddy's stroker kx500, and had wiseco quote me on it. they wanted $249.95 for each piston and minimum run of 4 pistons. the bore size and skirt length on that piston was custom, but the bore size was exactly the same as a CR500 piston, and the ring land dimensions were the same too, so we could have just used cr500 rings, saving the cost of needing rings made too i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 i drew up an over size KX500 piston for a buddy's stroker kx500, and had wiseco quote me on it. they wanted $249.95 for each piston and minimum run of 4 pistons. the bore size and skirt length on that piston was custom, but the bore size was exactly the same as a CR500 piston, and the ring land dimensions were the same too, so we could have just used cr500 rings, saving the cost of needing rings made too i guess. yeah, Wiseco is a specialist in stuff like that. Where it gets expensive is making another blank. I am about to do the same for my PSI motored 250R. Friggin PSI wants to bend me over with their proprietary pistons. Way too heavy anyway. I plan to explore other options. I would say a grand for 4 complete custom pistons is a bargain but I am sure they had a slick blank that did not require too much adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan up Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Very interesting thread.. I never new pistons weren't "round". Why is that so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 I think the forged blanks has been a problem for us in the past. I heard we are better off designing the tool and the rough blank and going to a forging company than talking with a piston company but I get a little worried with quality. We probably have 10 conceptual piston designs saved but can not moved on them because of the mfg side of things. I have not followed up with Mahle lately but they usually only start listening at about 10,000 pieces so not sure if our businesses will align well. There is a definite upside to designing your own forging and then designing your manufacturing process around it. However, designing enough flexbility into the system to accomodate any future changes without having to change the forging or the tooling. Mahle won't talk to you on the production side of things for less that a few thousand pieces, but Federal Mogul and Eaton are the same way. Mahle has a prototype shop that will do onesy-twosey stuff for alot more money than it's worth, but you have to contact a totally different group of folks within Mahle for that. Wiseco is probably a better place to go for what you're looking for....... :geek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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