Nick_R_23 Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I just bought a 2003 Banshee with a 1995 engine that threw a rod. The crank is junk but everything else seems to have survived fairly well. The cylinders need to be bored and new pistons thrown in, along with a new crank. Im not looking to make this a high-hp or screaming fast bike right now, I have other machines for that. Even bone stock this bike will be faster then anything else around here anyway. It will be used mostly for trail riding. That said, I want to try and make this motor as reliable as possible. and last a long time. Since it needs a new crank, Ive been reading up and it seems that rebuilding a stock crank and buying a new Hotrods or Wiseco crank are about the same price. I dont think I want a stroker crank. Which one is better, and where is the best place to get them at? I found both on ebay for about 380$, ready to drop in. Ive seen that most people here prefer Wiseco pistons. Ive never had trouble with them and use them in a few of my other machines. I can get .050 over Wiseco pistons for 95$ apiece from Hyperparts and a Moose complete gasket kit with oil seals for 80$ from DennisKirk. Are these good prices, or can I do better? Last, since Im tearing this thing completely apart, what are some of the weak spots or things I should replace or look at while its apart? -Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 For reliablity purposes, you are going to want the crank welded and trued. For good prices there are several site sponsors that can hook you up. FAST and Herrjugs are 2 names you are going to see on here a lot. They are both site sponsors and contributors. I dont think those prices you listed are terrible, but not great either. I buy most of my stuff from Jeff at FAST racing. He will hook you up. I would get a crank from him and have him weld/true it and you may want to upgrade the bearing on the PTO to a maxload. If you dont want to get it ported, I would go with a stock stroke 5mil long rod crank. You would then run 795 series pistons to compensate for the longer rod. That would make for a nice long lasting motor. If you want to get it ported, you may as well get the 4mil stroker crank and have the cylinders ported to match. Probably should upgrade the clutch while you are in there, and get yourself a pancake bearing style clutch disengagement adjuster. You may also want to consider a billet water pump impelar. Other than that just inspect everything and take your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Good advice there!! reasonable compression and timing is the key to a long lasting motor. Stock cranks are tough as all hell...when trued and welded right. My advice to save some money is talk to NYUK and get a stock crank that is in good shape (they go for 100 to 175 bucks on average) and pay someone to true and weld it up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_R_23 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thanks for the advice guys!! Looking on the FAST site I think I will go with the crank and Wiseco pistons on there. Plus its always better to support the site sponsors. :thumbsup: The true and weld comes with the stock stroke cranks for 400$, right? How much extra is the bearing upgrade? I dont think I would get much out of porting this one, or a long rod/stroker crank. It will be used on tight, heavily forested trails, and also more open dirt trails, and probably hit about 45 mph max. I have to let a 400 Kodiak keep up with me. :yelrotflmao: Also, what on the clutch should I upgrade? Just fibers, springs, or the whole basket? And what is the pancake bearing adjuster and what does it do? Ive also heard about shift shaft/shift star mods, what exactly is modded and what does this mod do also? I will definately get a billet waterpump. I know this is a common problem with Tri-Z engines. Would the impellers be the same for the Banshee and Z? Sorry about all the questions, I just want to get this one put together well and not have to see the inside for a long time!! -Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thanks for the advice guys!! Looking on the FAST site I think I will go with the crank and Wiseco pistons on there. Plus its always better to support the site sponsors. :thumbsup: The true and weld comes with the stock stroke cranks for 400$, right? How much extra is the bearing upgrade? The welds that come on the hotrods cranks is not big enough. Everybody recomends putting a bigger bead on there. I honestly dont remember what the charge was for that. I bought everything at once. Dont qoute me, but i think the maxload bearing was around $50. It was recomended, so i did it. Like dajo said, you might be able to get a screaming deal on a low hour stocker and have it welded and trued. That would save you some coin. I dont think I would get much out of porting this one, or a long rod/stroker crank. It will be used on tight, heavily forested trails, and also more open dirt trails, and probably hit about 45 mph max. I have to let a 400 Kodiak keep up with me. :yelrotflmao: You could have a woods/trail port done. This in combo with a good set of midrange pipes would make it a blast. Sounds like you probably dont need it, but hey you can never have too much power right :biggrin: Again, if you decide to have the motor ported, may as well do the 4mm stroke. It would add some torque, and with a nice moderate port job, and the correct pipes i would think would kick ass on the trails. Also, what on the clutch should I upgrade? Just fibers, springs, or the whole basket? And what is the pancake bearing adjuster and what does it do? Ive also heard about shift shaft/shift star mods, what exactly is modded and what does this mod do also? You need to look at the basket and inner hub. If they are grooved, replace them. You can upgrade the basket to billet, about 150 new, or might be able to find a good used billet or stocker. The inner hub is about 50 bucks i think. As far as the clutch, you can go to the FZR fibers and barnett or raptor steels i believe. Or buy a clutch kit from one of the vendors all put together for you. for the motor you are doing, i think 3 HD springs would be plenty. The clutch kit Jeff sells is holding my 421 cub with 6 hd springs and no lock up so far. Here is the pancake bearing http://www.farmandsandtoys.com/partdetail.asp?partid=193 The modded shift star has the tips of the star ground down to make the bike shift easier. I have a modded shift star and modded shaft on one of my bikes, shifts great. there are lots of options there Whoever you end up buying your parts from can tell you his favortite method. I will definately get a billet waterpump. I know this is a common problem with Tri-Z engines. Would the impellers be the same for the Banshee and Z? I have no idea if the tri Z impelar is the same. Get the prodesign, the older modquad units were junk as they had aluminum shafts that grooved up really quickly. Sorry about all the questions, I just want to get this one put together well and not have to see the inside for a long time!!-Nick Get a manual, take your time, ask lots of questions and you should be fine. I would call a few different suppliers and see which you like. They can hook you up with everything you need to build a good motor that will last a long time. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlasterKX Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Like said before i have also heard that a long rod is better for less wearing on your cylinders and piston rings. i figured id throw that out there for ya. good luck man. you got any pics of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee_terror_ Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) yah a longer rod is better for your motor it takes away the force of the piston on the cylinder walls and yah lets see some pics Edited February 3, 2009 by banshee_terror_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_R_23 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 The welds that come on the hotrods cranks is not big enough. Everybody recomends putting a bigger bead on there. I honestly dont remember what the charge was for that. I bought everything at once. Dont qoute me, but i think the maxload bearing was around $50. So if the cranks are already welded, I take it the welding included on the site is a reweld/better weld? You could have a woods/trail port done. This in combo with a good set of midrange pipes would make it a blast. Sounds like you probably dont need it, but hey you can never have too much power right Again, if you decide to have the motor ported, may as well do the 4mm stroke. It would add some torque, and with a nice moderate port job, and the correct pipes i would think would kick ass on the trails. I think I will hold off on porting, at least for now. If I ever change my mind, all I have to do is pop off the cylinders and send them in. I also want to keep the engine cost around 7-800$ as much as possible. I will be using stock pipes for now but I will definately be changing them out as $$ permits. The modded shift star has the tips of the star ground down to make the bike shift easier. I have a modded shift star and modded shaft on one of my bikes, shifts great. there are lots of options there Whoever you end up buying your parts from can tell you his favortite method. So the shift star and shaft are worthwhile mods then? Do I send my old shaft in to be modded/have the modded parts sent to me or will they just send me a whole new one? Like said before i have also heard that a long rod is better for less wearing on your cylinders and piston rings. i figured id throw that out there for ya. good luck man. you got any pics of it? What all is required for the long rod? Crank obviously, are there cylinder spacers, different pistons/heads? I also only see the 4mm on the FAST site, they dont mention a long rod being available? How much more would this cost? Ill toss up some pics when I get home, I got the plastics cleaned up and finished straightening the frame so everything actually fits like it should now. Amazing difference when stuff slides right in and bolts right up compared to fighting and prying and pulling. :yelrotflmao: -Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEVSWS6 Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 So if the cranks are already welded, I take it the welding included on the site is a reweld/better weld? I think I will hold off on porting, at least for now. If I ever change my mind, all I have to do is pop off the cylinders and send them in. I also want to keep the engine cost around 7-800$ as much as possible. I will be using stock pipes for now but I will definately be changing them out as $$ permits. So the shift star and shaft are worthwhile mods then? Do I send my old shaft in to be modded/have the modded parts sent to me or will they just send me a whole new one? What all is required for the long rod? Crank obviously, are there cylinder spacers, different pistons/heads? I also only see the 4mm on the FAST site, they dont mention a long rod being available? How much more would this cost? Ill toss up some pics when I get home, I got the plastics cleaned up and finished straightening the frame so everything actually fits like it should now. Amazing difference when stuff slides right in and bolts right up compared to fighting and prying and pulling. :yelrotflmao: -Nick FAST 4 mil stroker in the long rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_R_23 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Heres some pics, I went and got a bunch of bolts and got a lot of stuff bolted down. -Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 If your budget is 7-800 bucks, I think i would do like Dajo suggested. I would look for a good low hours stock crank, have it welded/trued, and then get the cylinders bored/honed if needed and put in some new pistons. Maybe get the stock head shaved or rechambered to bring up the compression a bit, or you could spring for a cool head. Lots of them used on here. You would probably have enough money left over to get some good used pipes. For trail riding you could get yourself some procircuits. I have seen several sets on here lately in the 2-300 dollar range. Jet it appropriately and go rip it up. Call KEVSWS6, (he is the owner of Herrjuggs) or Fast or any of the builders on here for that matter. I am sure they come across decent stock cranks all the time as a lot of guys are going to strokers. Just FYI if you go to the stock stroke long rod, you dont use a spacer, you use the 795 series wiseco pistons which have the wrist pin moved up 5mm to compensate for the longer rod. If you go 4mm stroker, the prefered way is not to use a spacer plate, but to have the cylinders ported to get the timing right, then use a coolhead with domes with a 2mm recessed cut to allow for the pistons to come out of the top of the cylinder 2mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopczynski Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I just bought a 2003 Banshee with a 1995 engine that threw a rod. The crank is junk but everything else seems to have survived fairly well. The cylinders need to be bored and new pistons thrown in, along with a new crank. Im not looking to make this a high-hp or screaming fast bike right now, I have other machines for that. Even bone stock this bike will be faster then anything else around here anyway. It will be used mostly for trail riding. That said, I want to try and make this motor as reliable as possible. and last a long time. Since it needs a new crank, Ive been reading up and it seems that rebuilding a stock crank and buying a new Hot Rods or Wiseco crank are about the same price. I don't think I want a stroker crank. Which one is better, and where is the best place to get them at? I found both on ebay for about 380$, ready to drop in. Ive seen that most people here prefer Wiseco pistons. Ive never had trouble with them and use them in a few of my other machines. I can get .050 over Wiseco pistons for 95$ apiece from Hyperarts and a Moose complete gasket kit with oil seals for 80$ from DennisKirk. Are these good prices, or can I do better? Last, since Im tearing this thing completely apart, what are some of the weak spots or things I should replace or look at while its apart? -Nick Don'T buy a wiseco crank, been hearing of lots of problems, and saw one separate myself. Get a hot rods crank with long rods on it (115mm). Then your going to need a set of wiseco 795m pistons. I believe the hot rods crank comes welded, if not, then get that done. If you want to take longevity to a further level, send the crank and flywheel to falicon to be balanced. Don'T just buy any gasket set, your gonna need the right sized base and head gaskets to get your squish setup correctly. I prefer cometic or factory gaskets. If you want a little more Lowe end, put a very thin base gasket in, or seal the cylinders onto the case with no base gasket. This will drop your exhaust port duration. Then you just have to get the right head gasket thickness so you have .045" squish. Having a quick cleanup port job done is inexpensive, and will yield some fairly noticeable results in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Just an FYI...Snop. Wiseco used to make the hot rods crank...they don't any more. Hot rods still supplies the rods though. All these forged cranks come from the same place. The factory welds on the wiseco AND Hot rods cranks are garbage. The first thing I'd do is have a shop weld it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_R_23 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 So if I was to buy another stock crank to have trued and welded, should I look into replacing the bearings on it, maybe even go with the Maxload bearing on the one end? I keep hearing stories of the stock cranks coming apart. Plus the cost of buying another stock one, having it trued and welded and chancing it needing new bearings vs just flat out buying a new one will probably end up costing the same anyway, and might as well just go with a new one? I just dont want to end up spending up more money on a stock crank that might gernade itself later like the one thats in the engine did. -Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooker82 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 If you get a good stock crank the berrings should be good. Just have it checked to make sure it is ture, then the builder will weld the crank pins so it cant seperate or get out of phase. If your dead set on a new crank it would be dumb not to do the 4 mill stroker. Your looking at $380 for a stock crank when you can get the stroker from FAST for $430 You dont have to get your cylinders ported right now for the stroker. Everybody says that it wont run to its FULL potential. Well a non ported stock stroke engine doesnt run at its FULL potential ethire. If your just wanting to get this thing running and want a new crank I would go with the following. 4mill long rod crank with extra weld Wiseco 795 series pistons (required for both stock stroke long rod, and 4mill long rod) Run the spacer plate between the cylinders and cases instead of cut stroker domes for a cool head. The only extra it will cost to build will be the little difference in price for the crank and the spacer plate. I just got a set of cylinders bored from FAST with 795 Series pistons, gaskets, and shipping for $320 So your looking pretty much at that price plus the cost of the crank and spacer plate. josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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