SNT Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 new to this place. but i got some questions. my buddy got a 09 450r the other day and was making fun of my 03 shee. saying thats its old tech.... dont get me wrong i know that it is. i just wanna jump it and ROCK his face with old banshee tech!!!!! so help me out what do i need a arms, swing arm, shocks, ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 new to this place. but i got some questions. my buddy got a 09 450r the other day and was making fun of my 03 shee. saying thats its old tech.... dont get me wrong i know that it is. i just wanna jump it and ROCK his face with old banshee tech!!!!! so help me out what do i need a arms, swing arm, shocks, ??? Short/Cheapest answer: Buy a 450r. Here's why. It's not the Banshee TECHNOLOGY that is old, it's the GEOMETRY that is terrible. A-arm suspension is the best and most efficient when your a-arm pivots are as close to the center point of the frame as possible. Compare your front end, to the 450R's front end. The 450 has roughly 2" between the lower a-arm pivots, whereas the Banshee has about 6-7". Also notice that the upper a-arm on a 450r is significantly longer than the lower a-arm. On a Banshee, this leads to shorter a-arms, less travel, and choppier handling. To outhandle a stock YFZ450R, you better get out the checkbook. It CAN be done relatively inexpensively, but all he's going to have to do is ditch his stock shocks, put on good aftermarket ones, and you're back at square one. Banshee's are incredible straight line machines. It takes MUCH more than just A-arms and shocks to get a banshee to handle well. You need IMMENSE skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Short/Cheapest answer: Buy a 450r. Here's why. It's not the Banshee TECHNOLOGY that is old, it's the GEOMETRY that is terrible. A-arm suspension is the best and most efficient when your a-arm pivots are as close to the center point of the frame as possible. Compare your front end, to the 450R's front end. The 450 has roughly 2" between the lower a-arm pivots, whereas the Banshee has about 6-7". Also notice that the upper a-arm on a 450r is significantly longer than the lower a-arm. On a Banshee, this leads to shorter a-arms, less travel, and choppier handling. To outhandle a stock YFZ450R, you better get out the checkbook. It CAN be done relatively inexpensively, but all he's going to have to do is ditch his stock shocks, put on good aftermarket ones, and you're back at square one. Banshee's are incredible straight line machines. It takes MUCH more than just A-arms and shocks to get a banshee to handle well. You need IMMENSE skill. well isnt thats the sunshine in my day!!!!! hahaha well im a metal fabricators by trade... so then ill copy the geometry of the 450 in the front. i know longer control arms mounted in the centre is the best . like if it take for me to redesign the front of the bike ill do it... i just thought maybe there was something else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 well isnt thats the sunshine in my day!!!!! hahaha well im a metal fabricators by trade... so then ill copy the geometry of the 450 in the front. i know longer control arms mounted in the centre is the best . like if it take for me to redesign the front of the bike ill do it... i just thought maybe there was something else That's been tried probably thousands of times with limited success. Your time would be much better spent putting your banshee motor into a YFZr roller. There are several threads here by people doing that exact thing. If you're going to hack the front end off of a Banshee frame, I wouldn't copy the 450r front end. I would model it after a TRX250R, or utilize an i-beam type setup. Dean Sundahl built a few chassis that used an I-Beam style suspension, but his were ghastly looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 That's been tried probably thousands of times with limited success. Your time would be much better spent putting your banshee motor into a YFZr roller. There are several threads here by people doing that exact thing. If you're going to hack the front end off of a Banshee frame, I wouldn't copy the 450r front end. I would model it after a TRX250R, or utilize an i-beam type setup. Dean Sundahl built a few chassis that used an I-Beam style suspension, but his were ghastly looking. ok man this is where i ask you to show me. links please i wanna see what kinda hack jobs you pull out of a barrel for me. no offense to anyone but im one talented tig weldin cromo bending son of a B!TCH and why TRX250? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake644 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 ok man this is where i ask you to show me. links please i wanna see what kinda hack jobs you pull out of a barrel for me. no offense to anyone but im one talented tig weldin cromo bending son of a B!TCH and why TRX250? from what i have heard the trx250r was one of the best frames ever made and is what really made the bike back in the 80s im pretty sure the 400ex and trx450r frames are very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake644 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The 250R was not a good frame but it had good geometry. I broke 250R frames like it was going out of style. The square tube just isn't as strong as round tube. sorry thats kinda what i was trying to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The 250R was not a good frame but it had good geometry. I broke 250R frames like it was going out of style. The square tube just isn't as strong as round tube. just the man i wanted too talk too! you would know.. why would you wanna move the front wheels forward on a banshee? its already longer then any mx quad? centre of gravity or???? i understand guys shorten the swingarm also so is it for better rider position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 LOL, Yeah, David, he wants to ask you about your suspension... Wheelbase is all relative to weight balance. Banshees are inherently front heavy. Think about it this way. You have a square table with 300lbs sitting on it, do you want the legs to be as far out on every corner, or positioned right in the middle? It's all about stability. The basic concepts of suspension design are rudimentary, honestly. A shorter swingarm moves the weight balance closer to the center of the bike, providing more traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 LOL, Yeah, David, he wants to ask you about your suspension... Wheelbase is all relative to weight balance. Banshees are inherently front heavy. Think about it this way. You have a square table with 300lbs sitting on it, do you want the legs to be as far out on every corner, or positioned right in the middle? It's all about stability. The basic concepts of suspension design are rudimentary, honestly. A shorter swingarm moves the weight balance closer to the center of the bike, providing more traction. oooooooooo you must have a PHD in engineering. i was asking a simple question and wanted a simple answer. and did you design davids suspension or just rebuild the shocks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 oooooooooo you must have a PHD in engineering. i was asking a simple question and wanted a simple answer. and did you design davids suspension or just rebuild the shocks? I kinda thought that was a pretty simple answer. I tried to use real-world scenarios rather than throwing ratios, and algebraic equations at you to explain my theory. Actually, no. I don't have a degree in engineering. I have a dual Bachelors in Corporate Management, Human Developmental Psychology. I've been in the industry for MANY years. My name has been on the side of some of the biggest names in the off road racing community. Household names. Currently, I sponsor professional and amateur ATV riders, and countless professional and amateur off road racers. MORE, CORR, SNORE, MDR, and SCORE. I am not in this business to make money. That is blatantly evident. If I was, I would have told you, "Yeah, I'll sell you a set of long travel arms, and some elka's, you'll whoop on your buddy." I'm sorry my answers weren't exactly what you wanted to hear, but there is a reason LSR models their Outlaw suspension geometry after the TRX250R. You don't have to get hostile. We're all friends here. I just feel like since my answers weren't exactly what you wanted to hear, you got offended for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I kinda thought that was a pretty simple answer. I tried to use real-world scenarios rather than throwing ratios, and algebraic equations at you to explain my theory. Actually, no. I don't have a degree in engineering. I have a dual Bachelors in Corporate Management, Human Developmental Psychology. I've been in the industry for MANY years. My name has been on the side of some of the biggest names in the off road racing community. Household names. Currently, I sponsor professional and amateur ATV riders, and countless professional and amateur off road racers. MORE, CORR, SNORE, MDR, and SCORE. I am not in this business to make money. That is blatantly evident. If I was, I would have told you, "Yeah, I'll sell you a set of long travel arms, and some elka's, you'll whoop on your buddy." I'm sorry my answers weren't exactly what you wanted to hear, but there is a reason LSR models their Outlaw suspension geometry after the TRX250R. You don't have to get hostile. We're all friends here. I just feel like since my answers weren't exactly what you wanted to hear, you got offended for some reason. sorry about that man. about a year ago i designed a front end for a 1930 ford and everyone said i wouldnt work. and yeah there was bugs to work out but when i was finshed it worked fantastic. i just dislike people telling me my ideas wont work.. and maybe it wont with out some info from guys such as your self. and i wasnt gunna buy anything i was gunna build a set of a arms either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ok so this is what I'm thinking just a quick sketch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNT Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Zilla is right, you will probably need to make the a-arms gull wing style to accomplish that. ok boys thanks for the input. and every place where the new chassis will be mounted to the old will be sleaved and gusseted. and i dont wanna just throw a banshee motor in a diffrent chassis because it wouldnt be a banshee anymore lol ill be starting next week ill post picture like crazy and try explaining it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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