Wiz
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Posts posted by Wiz
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Geeze was that last post about me?....it is ok you can call me out I am a big boy and can defend myself.... Not that I need to at this point. No matter what I say the head honchos think I am a dumbass and a dick allready..
The first thing you mentioned I take full credit for. I did say something smartassed about 2001banshee not knowing what case porting was about, It was a joke I had read alot of posts on here before i posted anything. I had seen he was pretty knowelgable on banshees. and made an assumtion that he would get it and I was wrong. I did appologize to him and we shared a PM about it also.
I have heard of the ball and rod weld job although I have never seen it or experienced it. The post was made along the lines of I don't understand how it happens so much or what "actually" causes it, seems to me that rider error would cause it more than anything else. In the said topic that this comment was refered to I believe the person said the pulled a banshee for like 3 miles after something broke in the clutch or tranny, the whole time they pulled the bike they had the clutch pulled in and that cause the ball to weld. My rider error point fits here, why not just pull the chain off the rear sprocket? Please somebody give me an example of the "ball weld" happeneing to THEM and what they think caused it I am curious.
You are correct I have hung out with MANY of the NW largest builders, and I feel some of the best, while I do not agree with the practices of all of them, Cascade being one of the largest, to tell you the truth I don't like Cascade, I have used them as an example on this thread (with my point going un-noticed as usuall, all I got was they build pretty bikes not one comment on how well there bikes run with the set-ups they run but I understand you have never seen them run) several of my friends and myself have been treated very poorly by them since Tim took over. But I do respect what they accomplished in the busniess and they build very pretty bikes that run 2nd to none in the play world, it was a much better place when Kevin owned it.
While I am not sure if Cascade pioneered the pancake bearing set-up they have pushed it more than any other along with many other things they have built and sold for a long time like billet products, paul turner pipes and the single carb set-up. I see this pancake bearing thing as a good busniess ploy, make people believe they need it and the problem it fixes. Make it sound like a huge problem or a performance gain, resonably priced and it will be a sure seller. Not unlike thousands of other products out there. (I got a whole box of boost bottles for sale) It is all about marketing and making people think that is what they need.
Booker I don't care what you buy I am not trying to sell anything or here to impress you or anyone. Have simply stated what has worked for ME, where I ride and how I ride and would recomend it to anyone with simalar circumstances...
But you know what they say "Oppinions are like assholes, everyone has one"
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Dude you got props from me for doing this. No matter how well it works when done you will be able to site back and say "I did that", and that is one hell of a project for anyone.
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Just for the record i live in OREGON and i would never dream of putting low to mid range pipes on my cub or small carbs or a single carb.
I wanted more torque out of my cub motor so i had the cylinder decked, i didn't put the wrong pipes and carbs on it.You can set up a cub cylinder without choking it down if you set it up properly.
If i remember right you can also bump up the compression in your motor to get more torque.Cant you also change your gearing so you don't fall out of the pipe as easy.
I have done alot of hillshooting on the OREGON coast with a 4mil crank, 68mil cub, inframe drag pipes and 35pwk alky carbs and a 6 inch arm.
the cylinders I have now are decked also
I just want you to clear something up, everything but CPI or Shearers are the "wrong" pipes and anything smaller than 35mm carbs are the "wrong" carbs?
I am not tryigto be a smart ass just looking for some clarification...
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anybody ever seen one of these?
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
apparently from what i have read they fit import cars and will fit a banshee, for those that run fullbore plastic it would work pretty good I think and is cheap. they sell them at autozone also
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arn't people putting yfz shocks on banshee's (the fronts)? I don't quite understand why unless you get a good deal on them seems like you can buy elkas for the front for less than 400 bones..
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Holy crap! I gave up half-way through page 3. This whole argument has been done before. Quite a few times actually. Its all just in what you want to do with it and what YOU think is best. Who cares if you have a super-tard cylinder with jew pipes and herkamer fudd carbs or joe-blow cylinders and couch cushions for silencers. If it does what you want and you have fun riding it... who cares!?!
The weirdest thing I ever tried was a K&T drag ported stock stroke cub cylinder that I put on a 4mil longrod crank with offset 17cc domes, T5's and 33mm carbs. It was one of the funest bikes I ever had and I wish I never sold it. It wasn't the fastest or most powerful thing out there, but it was fun to ride. It had the hit that the original drag cylinders did, but it hit in the midrange instead of up on top. Using the stock height cylinders with a 4mil without re-adjusting the porting was a long stretch, but worked and was pretty fun to ride.
I've got a stock cylinder 4mil Gorr ported bike with 38's and shearers that will put a hurtin on a LOT of cub drag bikes and cheetah drag bikes. and its my little duner! If you want to get all competitive I have a 612cc big block twister that did some high 80's up sand mountain. It all just depends on what you like to do and what you think works best for you. Some of these arguments get out of hand.
very well said.....
my Patriot 4mil cub was set up about exactly like that, I was using a little shorter dome, 33's and t-5's and that bike was a kick in the ass to ride. My new motor is running a little more top end but still has that bottom and mid range power. I am a fat ass and needed more power...
my point through this whole arguement has been you can take a cub motor with casting clean-ups no porting and make a great dune bike out of it.... alot of people have done it and will contiue to do it, they are a cheap way to get into the small stroker or big bore market with the capability to make them run how you want weather it be a drag set up or a play set-up
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I have a buddy that has a set of cut t-3's chrome if intrested $200 with silencers I believe...although they would look better black and rusty...
you guys should not agree with me you will get labled as not knowing notthing also...
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Interesting...in the fact you need your eyes checked. Where did I say large cc bikes?
Here is a 4 mil cub, one of the 4 for sale, with PTs and a 2 into one setup. And I've seen plenty more on their site in the past.
I have to admit...it's been probably a solid month or two since I've been on it.
(By the way, the 10 mil you pointed out is a mere 44cc's larger than the 4 mil I pointed out...not a huge dif there buddy...)
http://67.199.65.66/cascade_innovations/ne...ORE_DEPT_ID=609
So what is your point exactly? you are smarter than the guys building and selling 12grand bikes and have been doing it for many years?
but that is rite cub motors only run with drag pipes and big carbs....
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just what I thought same shit out of the same mouth....
I got dan's number if you want it..... People that are not dumbasses and call him with stupid questions get it..... yea he set my 4 mil cub up for t-5's too.....
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lets back the bus up...I never said that a single carb set-up or paul Turner pipes were the way to go, I said Irun t-5 pipes on my motor with my set up, I run 35mm pwk's and do not believe in the single carb set-up....
Hercalm...you prove your own point hare scrambles....that is not abuse where you are in deep sand half way up the wheels with alot of paddle for traction, you run a knobbie tire on dirt or mud....traction is your problem allready, that is the reason you do not break parts.
Daj put the crack pipe down, by not alot of timing i mean no need for more than +4 you do nothing but solidify what I say and yet do not acknowledge the things you can't argue.... it shows that you truely have no expereince past 300'
Do yourself a favor pick up your telephone and call Dan you seem to kow him so well, while your at it call cascade, call Cameron Call Lewie, any of these builders that build motors for these conditions that live and ride here and see What they say....I will post there phone numbers if you would like...
Tell you what I am going to Lewie's rite now PM me your number I and I will have him call you, matter of fact Cascade is less than a mile from his shop I will swing by there and give mike and Tim you number also...but you probably know more about sand ridding than any of these guy too....
You know for this being your site there sure is a lack of your motor builders that have your back on this, I know Dan is a member of this forum also.
I appologized to you for anything rude I have said insult you, I have been the bigger man you sure set a good example for the rest of the people on your site....I bet your sponsors love it...
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un stamped cpi's are a sleeper look? I don't think CPI's are that hard to notice what they are. I guess it is all what you consider a "sleeper".....
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Just a little morning sarcasm before my morning coffee.
Yes...I know they have their limitations. And since they've been around for 20-30 years (including the RZ/RD heritage) they've had a lot more time to extract the most out of them.
I guess my final point is this. If you ride in a place or local where your bike is constantly churning upper RPMs, you can not only use but harness that power and get it to the ground....then yes, these aftermarket cylinders are the key.
I'd have a hard time telling someone to build a cub motor, cheetah motor, twister motor, etc., when they poke around tight trails, around the farm...or just general duning and telling them...well, you can get that motor to run real real well and make a lot of HP, or...you could suffocate it with smaller pipes, less timing, less compression, smaller carbs....to suit your needs.
This is not the drag racer in me speaking...
This is a practical, best bang for your buck person speaking.
Cubs are not for everyone. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it's a good idea or the best way.
I rode tight trails, open trails, fire roads, mud bogs, etc., for a LONG time before I got hooked on crack...or, drag racing as we call it.
My whole point all along has been about neutering a motor that is meant to breathe....
While I'm certainly not going to speak for Calvin....if you ask him when he designed the cylinder (ANY of his cylinders) if he had a two into one carb setup or trail pipes in mind...I think his answer would be no.
I would not recomend cub or any other aftermarket cyclinders to anyone on a farm or genral slow duning but apparently you keep missing the point?
Let me break this down a little simpler for you. we ride in the deep sand that takes HP to move and lots of HP to move good, when we drop down into tree holes or shots, alot of the time there is not bottom so you are slidding you bike 200 to 500 feet down the side of a dune that is pushing a 40 degree angle with nothing below you but brush no flat spot to turn around or stop. You have to be able to get on the high side of the bike and get the bike sideways while using your breaks and your clutch/throtthel to just get the tire to spi just enough to loop it around a tree. once you have done all of that it is time to put the power down, normally you are in and out of the throttle 5-6 times wheels in the air while you weave your way out of these holes. There are no easy ways out it is the way you go in or a rope.
Now I have ran stock cyclinder bikes with good luck mostly, the problems you run into with your 80ph stocker is there is no bottom end power, and no reliability. Sure somebody said on here 80 hp bike that were lasting 3 seasons how much hard dune ridding were done in those 3 seasons?
on a stock cylinder motor once you start out of one of these holes and have to burp the throttle you cannot get it back up on the pipe without feathering the clutch, they are not true dune ported pull in the midrange and bottom stock cylinder motors. When you get aggressive with the clutch you start bearking baskets, clutches, chains, sprockets and transmissions. Same problem with a Cub motor with CPI's or Shearers all the power in the world on the top end at 10,000 RPM but once you get out of that power and have to get back into it you are done.... Turn around and hope or get a Rope....With the set-up the smart guys are running this is not a problem. You can get out of the throttle and wick back into it and bang, rite back on the pipe. Not all of this comes from the pipe of course, Alot of this comes from not running a lightend flywheel, not alot of timming and alot of compression.
If any of you make it out to Oregon bring your CPI or Shearer bike I have a built 4mil stock cylinder banshee and I have my 4/7 mill cub set up to pull you can ride all three in the places I show you to go and you tell me wich works better.....I have been there allready on the end of a rope I know the answer...
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okbasspro, are those Sand Gecko tires on your banshee? does it hook up with those tires? looks like you are running alot of motor and not alot of tire?
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it was the polaris scrambler front wheels that were the same bolt pattern as a banshee also. my dad had one of those POS 400 2 stroke scramblers that we put paddles on all 4...what a dissapointment that whole bike was....
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old school tri-Z three wheeler axle is the same as a banshee also. Also the warrior rear brake disc will fit a banshee and OEM price is about half of the cost of a banshee one.
Also in 04 when I built a new bike I wanted to buy a new factory banshee frame. this is when i worked at the dealership, a stock 04 frame was like $780 retail, I was diggin through the computer and found that a 04' limited edition frame which is exactly the same except black instead of silver was less than $500 retail. I am sure yamaha caught this eventually and you would have to know your dealership guys really well for them to do something like this but it made me laugh.
Also I needed a CDI after doing some digging again (the previous thing tought me) I found that you could by the GYTR performance CDI for like $100 cheaper than the stock unit. I have the GYTR unit now and have swapped it on several bikes and can be damned if I can tell any difference, but it was cheaper, smaller and mounts better (comes with a bracket). Plus it comes with a GYTR sticker on it...that scares the shit out of the guy you are linning up with....lol
I also came across a small aluminum kickstarter, a friend foud out on the sand it got threw into a box of misc. parts I ran across it while building my last bike and did some comparing to find out that it fit a banshee knuckle perfect, it is trick looking follows the clutch case lines real well and is kinda a 1 off on my bike, no clue what it is off of, I had it polished and the knuckle chromed, I will take a pic mayby somebody can recognise what it is off of.
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last motor I did I used the Vito's seal kit, seems to be working fine so far, up until them normally only used OEM but my shop was out of a couple I needed so I bought the kit, the vito's looked the same and fit just as well as the OEM, was much cheaper..not a place to skimp on price though if the seals are not as good....
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it is not thick like gear oil though it is thin like ATF, the wieght ratings is not the same as it is in car oils. I believe that the maxima MTL is rated at 80 wt. also. I talked to the Redline Rep at dunefest this year and he told me the motor cycle oil is made for street bikes or 4 stroke quads where you oil lubricates the whole motor not just the clutch and tranny like a banshee. But after reading what is wrote about it makes me wonder....
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CPI or shearer are you best bet for drag performance, if you are wanting a real sleeper look, try finding an old set of cut t-3's they work way better tha t-5's for drag racing and alot of people will not know what they are...
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how much pressure are you puttin in the cylinders? and as said above you can use a sealant just not alot and make sre your surfaces are clean, gaskets should work, you should not have to locktite the intake screws either if you get them tight they should not come out, with locktite they could be a huge pain to get out in the future. might want to run a thread chaser through all the holes and make sure they are clean and that the bolts you are using are correct length so they are not bottoming out.
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back in the day b 4 quads were even thought of,they used to change pipes on dirt bikes like the honda elsinores,cr 125 for instance.you could get a high pipe a low pipe or a mid rise pipe to change the power band of the engine.between the pipe changes you could have lower end grunt,mid range power or more top end power from the change of your pipe.i go back to these days and rode and owned these old school bikes.i have owned many kawi h2 tripple 2 stroke 750's hi 500's yamaha rd's etc.i also have alot of drag racing experience 1/4 mi and 1/8 mile my last drag bike ran 5.20 at a 149 mph in the 1/8 mile and 7.6 sec in the quarter what banshee does that none.anyway my point here is i agree with alot of what every one is saying here,alot of good points have been made for the big rpm motors and for the guy thats trying to make usable power.i can see taking a cub motor and making usable power and the extra cooling the cub cylinders provide among other reasons.im always reading about how people are looking for more hp,im one of them but at the same time i have a trail quad and its a 4 stroke great for tight trail rides and race Chase through the woods.my banshee being way faster than my z400 i dont think my banshee can fuck with my z 400 in its habitat where it shines and the z wont fuck with the banshee in a drag race.bottom line here is nobody is correct or wrong cause there is a million ways to skin a cat and something that work for one person may not work for the other.thats why we have options and and able to make our own decisions.and nobody here has figured out what works for them with out trial and error.i think more people need to be more opened minded even though you have been through all the trial and error,no matter what one may know theres always something to learn and new ways to do things,i have found that the smartest one can learn something from the dumbest one on more than on e occasion.
Very well said.... :thumbsup: this was the point I have been trying to get across in my own twisted sort of way i guess.
Dajogjr, it is clear you know your shit and I give you mad props for this and I appolgize if I offended you in any way along with any others. I came on here to learn from others and share the knowledge that I have along with the love of the sport.
Bottom line is we all have our beliefs and we all believe strongly in the set-ups we have run becasue of results we have seen and felt in our own bikes. Am I rite yes in my situation it fits me in your situation you are dead on correct.
I had a PV motor my 535 it was a cheetah and I never liked it hence why i do not have it anymore I had continous probs with the power valves, I believe they did not work well with the porting, pipes and the carboration, I could never get it to run the way I wanted it to, this of course was a trinity motor (I am not a fan of trinity). Since that time I have steered away from PV motors and found that non-PV motors with the right set-up work very well for ME and the places I ride.
I have been around Banshees since about 89 and spent 5 years at a Yamaha dealership I have spent more time working on banshees than most 5 people combined granted this was alot of dealership work but we did our share of builds also. I learned from the problems that people had or what they wanted out of there bike by alot of other peoples trial and error with alot of different combonations.
Pacific, you have one of lewie's small block set-ups? If and when i ever build another motor it will be one of those. Lewie is a stand up guy I know him pretty well and I believe he is one of the best in this busniess, his cranks are 2nd to none along with his detail in his work. His cylinders I beleive are as good as the CP stuff in performance and offer some better features than CP, but that comes at a price...
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Before you go crazy why dont you check out cascades website most if not all the bikes run paul turners so if there such a bad idea why do they do it and yes they are on cub motors twister setups.I run my paul turners for the bottom end that cpi pipes can not provide so i can get the hole shot bottom end grunt we here in oregon race up the bowl not on the flats and the sand can be real loose i dont want to just spin my wheels down in a deep tree shot . so if i have to give a little on top to get some on the bottom so be it . This method is common out here makes for a much better duneable bike might not be the quickest in a straight line will hand most people there ass most of the time .SO IF YOU NEVER HAVE TRIED IT DONT KNOCK IT
this is because he is drag racer and does not understand the concept of hills, trees or corners....
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Glad I'm not the only one that thought the same.
Since you seem to know it all Wiz...why don't you break it down for us. Please tell me why he should run this cub with PT mid pipes...please, I'm dying to know. Tell me what the optimal compression should be...and why you're at it, the proper compression ratio.
Tell me what domes, squish, squish band, MSV, exhaust, intake, transfer and blow down timings he should have.
Tell me which base gasket he should run.
The fact that I have to explain to you that a dune ported set of stockers with his carb/pipe setup will have a broader range of power (READ...MORE USABLE RANGE) than a cub proves to me the fact that you don't have a clue.
The fact you think it's in his best interest, or anyone's for that matter....to detune a cub by placing small carbs and more restrictive pipes reinforces that.
Lastly, tell me how many cub cylinders you personally have setup, have run, what kind of numbers...
Even though anyone that has some already knows the answer. None.
Wow I sure pissed in your wheaties.....I am sorry you don't like me, I appolgized to 2001banshee or the rude comment I had said, was this not good enough for you guys? I was not trying to piss anyone off but everyone has there own oppinion and you guys are like if you oppinion is not like ours you are a trouble maker.... I only push back when pushed....
Simple fact of the matter is that YOU are a drag racer and think that everyone is or should be. when in fact a very minute fraction of 1 percent could give 2 shits less about how big your stroker motor is or how fast you ran at the track last weekend. Every one of your posts in this has been about racing, this thread was in no way started over racing but you keep comming back to it. You are out to make the most power you possably can to go the fastest you possably can with out thinking about longevity of your equipment or the cost. Now MOST people want to go out ride and have a good time with there friends and family weather it be on the sand or the dirt. That does not mean running at the track. they want something bolt on that when they are ready they can do this and it will still match there existing stock parts....
While I do not have all the answers for you I am the first to admit. I do know how things work in the real world away from the track where people do not run just 300' at a time and want the atvantages of a mono-block set-up.
Don't be a tool, we all know that a dune ported stockers make optimal broad range power, but they seriously lack in power say if, you were a big guy 300lbs, in relability still running steel sleeves, cooling capablity and then putting you trust in a builder to make a 80 hp. stock based motor that is going to be cost effecient and again reliable.
Speaking of re-enforcing statements since when is taloring something to the way it fits you and the way you ride detuning? you see the banshee world through only your eyes and think everyone should be like you and run at the track... I never said anything about his best intrest, through this whole conversation I have been mearly stating that not everybody wants all that top end power they want ot be able to ride the bike and not just race it, There are other pipe and carb combonations out there than the full race set-ups that is why calvin developed these cylinders to accept stock parts....
As far as my stroker motor experience:
10 mil 510 from Jim Duncan and charlie brown @ superior sleeve
10 mil 535 chhetah from Trinity
4 mil 421 from Dan Wade @ Patriot
7/4 mil 421 from Cameron at Redline
I have taken advise from each of the builders I purchased these kits from and combined how I wanted them to run. made some mistakes here and there but all of my bikes have ran hard off the track where they were built for....
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take some advise from someone that has built one make it fully adjustable, to accept more that 10x10 wheels...makes a big difference...
Cheetah Pipes
in Banshee Repairs and Mods
Posted
his whole thread has been about attacks. and I am not innocent, I am as strong willed as anyone and belive I am as correct as the next guy. To be honest it is SAD that it came to the point it has. I have gotten Several PM's from people I do not know or have ever spoken to that have commented on seeing some of the points I have brought up and are intrested in what I have accomplished with my set-up but are afraid to post anything in here because of being attacked as being stupid by the "powers that be". I do not know if that is the image they are wanting to portray but that is what is comming off. Like Bansheeboy stated in his posts there could have been better ways of saying things without causing an argument, I again state I was not innocent but not only my fault.
Cheers