THE358BANSH Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 My LS1 is currently getting tuned, and it puked a ring gear on the dyno. So once that is out of Ryans shop and tuned, the Banshee will be going in. Liar, LS motors don't make enough power to break rear ends! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schweet97Z Posted December 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Lol! This is the second 10 bolt I grenaded. The other one was in my 97 z28. And it was on the street! Ihave wish I had $2200 laying around for a 9inch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takai Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Takai doesn't have much time for co-respondance as they typically only cater to pro-level riders and teams but I noted this thread and felt a response was in order. Firstly, Takai does have engines to test on, however, Takai doesn't typically care to invest in old production equipment as all teams are using the latest and greatest equipment which we need to keep up on. That being said, the banshee is on the bottom of our list although a Yamaha engine and electroincs of that year are. That being said, we ALWAYS like to verify on a production machine as variances between loaded engine dyno and real world can, and have, happened in the past. We would like to provide a solution to banshee owners but until real world is verified they are on the backburner and this is why we wanted a tester, for frame fitment, to verify, and because Takai won't invest in the purchase of an old platform. If it was a new model, it would be on a track with a professional rider. Second, Takai could release a "cheap" version with one coil running 2 cylinders, however, a few things, "cheap" is not in the Takai vocabulary. Takai is a unique company, it's either all or nothing and no compromise will do, even for "cost". Takai equipment competes with the likes of Magnetti Marrelli and Mclaren Electronics. This is the decision of our parent branch M rakuin (M brand) electronics. #1. Cost is no object. That being said, if someone is looking for a cheap upgrade or backyard solution Takai is not for you and you should immediatly go elsewhere for your ignition related needs. In that case Nology or WeaponX may be right for you. I am sure WeaponX can supply you with a similar setup, however, I can garantee you won't get the results Takai equipment does. WeaponX, another subsidiary of M rakuin, is geared to produce, target cost, compete, and best, the likes of MSD, Accell, Nology, etc. Takai on the other hand is geared to best any production, Factory or race related part regardless of cost... There is a big difference between the two company mission statements. #2 For those interested in why two coils. In side by side tests, firing one plug in reverse polarity will reduce overall spark output of BOTH cylinders by up to 25%. This is because the ground electrodes in one cylinder is not optimized to fire the spark which requires a higher coil voltage to ionize the gap. The higher voltage reduces overall spark duration, reducing performance. Reduced performance because the spark is lit for less of the combustion sequence where additional fuel and air could potentially be lit by a longer duration spark, remember power input is needed in a process to create power output. Also, fouling is more predominant in one cylinder because of this configuration. The reason Yamaha, Ford, or whoever uses the single coil design for two cylinders is to reduce cost, not because it's optimal for race use. When is the last time someone saw a race engine with a single coil for two cylinders? Won't happen and M-Rakuin would never suggest it on a professional application. #3 Someone noted they want to see dynos. Funny, the only time I have never heard this is on a forum, never from a Factory team. Factory teams will ask, does it work? You have one shot to convince them, if it doesn't work, your name is mud. Takai makes sure they work as advertised and does real world testing before release. Besides most manufacturer "dynos" are as snake oil as the products most of them sell. Wondering why the reason Takai is allowing THIS test? To make sure you, the end user, is happy and to validate our own off machine bench tests. In the end, what use is it to provide naysayers with Takai dynos? Most people on forums don't believe them anyway and my suspicion is that those here that are sceptical would be sceptical anyway. M-rakuin and affiliates have always let the product speak for themselves and have always done real world testing before release. Since WeaponX was introduced in trial to the general public over 10 years ago, anybody that wants to research WeaponX will find that they have the highest satisfaction rate of any ignition coil producer on the market, and have been the first company ever to introduce true performance coil on plug technology to the aftermarket. Takai is also the ONLY company to deliver M-rakuin (highest level of) ignition related products to powersport professionals in the highest level of competition and the pricepoint is exactly in check with other manufacturers that deliver similar products. The only difference is that Takai equipment is delivered as plug and play and is pre-tested by professionals on applications to do as they say which takes the guess work out of it. This is a HUGE R&D cost Takai absorbs, but a LARGE benefit to powersport professionals and enthusiasts like yourselves that don't want to mess with a wiring or ECU configuration nightmare. In closing, all that being said, before launching to the general public, we always catered to professional teams, and currently have a laundry list of professionals running our stuff in MX and Superbike, Dirt Oval etc. It's not Takai's concern to hit pricepoint with nology or others. Besides, Takai's typical customers are not 2 stroke junkies that can get cheap power from a $200 pipe, they are professionals that pay several thousand ($2000 - $4000) for a titanium exhaust that nets them as much horsepower as our super coils do. Those that think "good luck" selling at $550, vs the cost of other 4 stroke equipment, Takai coils are a deal. Professionals pay it all day long for a product that works. We charge upwards of $800 for a Superbike setup and professionals pay it, because its tested and it works. Typical returns are 2 engine hp per ignition coil vs brand new Honda, Yamaha etc Superbike ignition coils. The returns are even greater (2-4hp) per coil for some older model powersport vehicles. Takai just signed another team that changes coils, harness and all electronics after 6 races. That would be 5 sets per bike for the season. I will also say that we have done enough testing and pro rider testing to say that no team that has ever tried the product has ever worked with Takai has given our equipment back. Everyone calls or reports back more then happy, hopefully we can do the same on an old platform for banshee users. If a banshee was new and on the track here, we would know for sure, however, like I said, Takai won't invest a ton of R&D for older platforms but they are open to trials outside of our facility in order to attempt to help other older communities that have product that isn't in production any longer. In any case, I have blabbered enough. Incase anybody wants to know, my name is Mark, I handle all the initial co-respondance for M-rakuin, Takai and WeaponX. I'm an EE with minor in Mechacnical Eng and am a Technical specialist that answers most of the basic questions and technical information / directs technical questions to appropriate people. I am in tight with the engineering crew and keep up on the latest here. My job is to make sure I know what is happening. Thought it might be wise to post a quick reply. I'm not really authorized to post here but things are slow for the Christmas week and thought I would post for those that are interested in knowing more. That being said, I won't be here often, but figured it would be nice to touch base. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE358BANSH Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Wow, I don't quite know what to say? It is nice that you would come down off your pedestal of awesomeness to speak with us peons. 1. Cost is not an object, but value is... Last time I checked, you listed yourself as the the CEO of WeaponX Performance, and that you were branching off with a subsidiary company called Takai racing. So is M Rakuin the owner of both these companies, or just the name of the "Super coil" on the website? 2. Please explain to me how a single spark plug is fired in "reverse polarity", when both high tension towers are tied to the same secondary windings in a two tower coil? How are your coils going to optimize the ground electrode on one cylinder and not the other? That's not even including the possible differences in ground strap design from manufacturer to manufacturer. Like mentioned before, the benefit of individual coils shines when the amount of dwell in a wasted spark setup is to short to get full saturation of the coil for the next ignition event. When that happens, you now install two coils with separate drivers so the dwell time is effectively doubled to get full saturation of the coil. How does two single tower coils outperform a twin tower single coil, if they are both being triggered from the same source? As far as seeing a race engine, there are plenty running damn good and setting records in both the powersports and automotive industry. 3. I agree that a dyno is a tool and too often people get hung up on numbers. That being said, a dyno is still real world testing device and will show differences that might, or might not be backed up on the race track. Your research and development is not being absorbed, it is passed on through the $550 price tag which as you stated is the difference between Takai and WeaponX. Who currently uses you products in a strenuous environment? I'm sure you probably cant say because of non disclosure agreements and us here at BHQ don't need to be privy to that information, but why we should take your word for it? I don't know, I guess I am just a skeptic. Maybe I don't understand what you mean because the translation software from Japanese to English doesn't have the latest update? Take care and have a Merry Christmas! Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Who currently uses you products in a strenuous environment? I'm sure you probably cant say because of non disclosure agreements and us here at BHQ don't need to be privy to that information, but why we should take your word for it? I don't know, I guess I am just a skeptic. Maybe I don't understand what you mean because the translation software from Japanese to English doesn't have the latest update? Take care and have a Merry Christmas! Evan I disagree. If a big name rider/team used their products I'm sure they'd want to showcase and promote that, not keep it in private. The test, R&D phase and purchase/financial are usually stated in a ND...but who uses the product after the test period is usually public knowledge. I would like to know what teams use this product... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locogato11283 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Wow, what a great first post Mark. Now BansheeHQ members know the following... 1. You're a pretentious dickhead. 2. Takai doesn't give a shit about the "little guy." 3. Dynos don't mean shit to factory race teams. You can take your "super coils" and fuck off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydownunder Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 i see what your saying takai, but all i hear is blah blah blah blah . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 2. Please explain to me how a single spark plug is fired in "reverse polarity", when both high tension towers are tied to the same secondary windings in a two tower coil? How are your coils going to optimize the ground electrode on one cylinder and not the other? That's not even including the possible differences in ground strap design from manufacturer to manufacturer. Like mentioned before, the benefit of individual coils shines when the amount of dwell in a wasted spark setup is to short to get full saturation of the coil for the next ignition event. When that happens, you now install two coils with separate drivers so the dwell time is effectively doubled to get full saturation of the coil. How does two single tower coils outperform a twin tower single coil, if they are both being triggered from the same source? As far as seeing a race engine, there are plenty running damn good and setting records in both the powersports and automotive industry. http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Ignition/wasted%20sp.html http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/437273-using-coil-pack-ignition-7.html alot of ford and gm coils are this way. this is how the banshee coil is also. this is why running the takai setup isnt going to net you anything. you are effectively going from one coil to 2 on the same power source. Im my worthless opinion takai is fixing a problem that doesn't exist. going Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 welcome to banshee HQ.. nology and DYNA both have well proven products for the banshee. they have a nice support system for the products AND i'm sure there are a few BMW payments made straight from the pockets of banshee owners... if you have a lil time why not take a few minutes of your precious day and look at this site or even this particular atv as a whole. its HUGE the aftermarket support is HUGE. how many other OR even ANY other atv dirt bike has the kind of suport or diehard backing like these? thanks and i'm not going to buy these anytime soon or ever.. the mounts look like back yard CNC trash made in china. top of the line yea right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANSHEE HP Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 since there isnt going to be any dyno graphs showing the improvments on this coil vs. any other... can we see some lap times, race results, chamionships won, hand drawn pictures of a takai bike out in front of the pack or getting a hole shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAK54 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Wow, what a great first post Mark. Now BansheeHQ members know the following... 1. You're a pretentious dickhead. 2. Takai doesn't give a shit about the "little guy." 3. Dynos don't mean shit to factory race teams. You can take your "super coils" and fuck off. hahah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 hey takai, i am actually in need of some nice coil for a school project. ne 2 seperate coils for a inductive ignition system. you guys want to donate a set of coils and wires? maybe though in some of those SHO plugs too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locogato11283 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Takai doesn't have much time for co-respondance as they typically only cater to pro-level riders and teams but I noted this thread and felt a response was in order. I thought I'd go ahead and break down your post. This is a great opening line. The fact that you graced us with your god-like presence is amazing to me. Firstly, Takai does have engines to test on, however, Takai doesn't typically care to invest in old production equipment as all teams are using the latest and greatest equipment which we need to keep up on. That being said, the banshee is on the bottom of our list although a Yamaha engine and electroincs of that year are. That being said, we ALWAYS like to verify on a production machine as variances between loaded engine dyno and real world can, and have, happened in the past. We would like to provide a solution to banshee owners but until real world is verified they are on the backburner and this is why we wanted a tester, for frame fitment, to verify, and because Takai won't invest in the purchase of an old platform. If it was a new model, it would be on a track with a professional rider. So you just picked some random Banshee rider to test your $550 coils? You're such a huge company that you can't afford some "professionals" to do some testing? Banshees are a dime a dozen which shouldn't be any big deal for such a big time company to purchase. Second, Takai could release a "cheap" version with one coil running 2 cylinders, however, a few things, "cheap" is not in the Takai vocabulary. Takai is a unique company, it's either all or nothing and no compromise will do, even for "cost". Takai equipment competes with the likes of Magnetti Marrelli and Mclaren Electronics. This is the decision of our parent branch M rakuin (M brand) electronics. So you won't release "cheap" products, but you will do cheap testing? Sounds a little bit contradictory. It's all or nothing, but you have some no name person testing your high dollar products. Am I getting this right? #1. Cost is no object. That being said, if someone is looking for a cheap upgrade or backyard solution Takai is not for you and you should immediatly go elsewhere for your ignition related needs. In that case Nology or WeaponX may be right for you. I am sure WeaponX can supply you with a similar setup, however, I can garantee you won't get the results Takai equipment does. WeaponX, another subsidiary of M rakuin, is geared to produce, target cost, compete, and best, the likes of MSD, Accell, Nology, etc. Takai on the other hand is geared to best any production, Factory or race related part regardless of cost... There is a big difference between the two company mission statements. Cost is no object, but Takai won't spend the money for dyno testing and real world testing with a "professional?" How can you gaurantee I won't get the same results with Takai as I would with a Nology or stock coil? You haven't done the dyno testing or any real world testing, so that claim is 100% false. You can gaurantee NOTHING. #2 For those interested in why two coils. In side by side tests, firing one plug in reverse polarity will reduce overall spark output of BOTH cylinders by up to 25%. This is because the ground electrodes in one cylinder is not optimized to fire the spark which requires a higher coil voltage to ionize the gap. The higher voltage reduces overall spark duration, reducing performance. Reduced performance because the spark is lit for less of the combustion sequence where additional fuel and air could potentially be lit by a longer duration spark, remember power input is needed in a process to create power output. Also, fouling is more predominant in one cylinder because of this configuration. The reason Yamaha, Ford, or whoever uses the single coil design for two cylinders is to reduce cost, not because it's optimal for race use. When is the last time someone saw a race engine with a single coil for two cylinders? Won't happen and M-Rakuin would never suggest it on a professional application. Oh really? The fouling doesn't have anything to do with the jetting being off? Right. #3 Someone noted they want to see dynos. Funny, the only time I have never heard this is on a forum, never from a Factory team. Factory teams will ask, does it work? You have one shot to convince them, if it doesn't work, your name is mud. Takai makes sure they work as advertised and does real world testing before release. Besides most manufacturer "dynos" are as snake oil as the products most of them sell. Wondering why the reason Takai is allowing THIS test? To make sure you, the end user, is happy and to validate our own off machine bench tests. In the end, what use is it to provide naysayers with Takai dynos? Most people on forums don't believe them anyway and my suspicion is that those here that are sceptical would be sceptical anyway. M-rakuin and affiliates have always let the product speak for themselves and have always done real world testing before release. Since WeaponX was introduced in trial to the general public over 10 years ago, anybody that wants to research WeaponX will find that they have the highest satisfaction rate of any ignition coil producer on the market, and have been the first company ever to introduce true performance coil on plug technology to the aftermarket. Takai is also the ONLY company to deliver M-rakuin (highest level of) ignition related products to powersport professionals in the highest level of competition and the pricepoint is exactly in check with other manufacturers that deliver similar products. The only difference is that Takai equipment is delivered as plug and play and is pre-tested by professionals on applications to do as they say which takes the guess work out of it. This is a HUGE R&D cost Takai absorbs, but a LARGE benefit to powersport professionals and enthusiasts like yourselves that don't want to mess with a wiring or ECU configuration nightmare. So let me get this straight... These so called professionals with these big race teams go strictly on your WORD? They don't care about dyno numbers to compare products? You're just that good of a salesmen that you can say, "Look guys, this is the BEST product around so you should buy it?" I don't buy that for a minute. Professional race teams want to see an increae in performance, not just an increase in your mouth moving, which is all you've managed to do here. Sorry to burst your bubble..Actually, I'm not sorry. That shit won't fly in this industry. The Banshee aftermarket industry is HUGE. If you can't provide anything more than your word, you might as well get out now. And you're not fooling anyone with your R&D nonsense. The consumers are paying for it, so don't act like Takai is just eating it. They wouldn't be in business if that were the case. To act like Takai is just pissing away money so that race teams have the best parts is utterly ridiculous. Get real, this is 2011.. In closing, all that being said, before launching to the general public, we always catered to professional teams, and currently have a laundry list of professionals running our stuff in MX and Superbike, Dirt Oval etc. It's not Takai's concern to hit pricepoint with nology or others. Besides, Takai's typical customers are not 2 stroke junkies that can get cheap power from a $200 pipe, they are professionals that pay several thousand ($2000 - $4000) for a titanium exhaust that nets them as much horsepower as our super coils do. Those that think "good luck" selling at $550, vs the cost of other 4 stroke equipment, Takai coils are a deal. Professionals pay it all day long for a product that works. We charge upwards of $800 for a Superbike setup and professionals pay it, because its tested and it works. Typical returns are 2 engine hp per ignition coil vs brand new Honda, Yamaha etc Superbike ignition coils. The returns are even greater (2-4hp) per coil for some older model powersport vehicles. Takai just signed another team that changes coils, harness and all electronics after 6 races. That would be 5 sets per bike for the season. I will also say that we have done enough testing and pro rider testing to say that no team that has ever tried the product has ever worked with Takai has given our equipment back. Everyone calls or reports back more then happy, hopefully we can do the same on an old platform for banshee users. If a banshee was new and on the track here, we would know for sure, however, like I said, Takai won't invest a ton of R&D for older platforms but they are open to trials outside of our facility in order to attempt to help other older communities that have product that isn't in production any longer. In any case, I have blabbered enough. $550 is NOT a deal to anyone on this planet unless they are going to net some serious horsepower increase, which as this point in time, you can't prove that they do. Your word is not good enough for me, my members or anyone else in the ATV industry. Mark my words Mark, without the dyno charts showing there is a point in spending the money, you will sell none of these coil set ups. Incase anybody wants to know, my name is Mark, I handle all the initial co-respondance for M-rakuin, Takai and WeaponX. I'm an EE with minor in Mechacnical Eng and am a Technical specialist that answers most of the basic questions and technical information / directs technical questions to appropriate people. I am in tight with the engineering crew and keep up on the latest here. My job is to make sure I know what is happening. Thought it might be wise to post a quick reply. I'm not really authorized to post here but things are slow for the Christmas week and thought I would post for those that are interested in knowing more. That being said, I won't be here often, but figured it would be nice to touch base. Regards Mark, you should probably leave the PR work for the professonals, because you are terrible at coming off like you give a shit about the people you're trying to sell products to. In case you wanted to know, my name is Tyler. I own and operate BansheeHQ.com, the world's largest Banshee website. I will definitely let as many people a I can know what kind of company Takai is and how our support means dick to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takai Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Wow, what a great first post Mark. Now BansheeHQ members know the following... 1. You're a pretentious dickhead. 2. Takai doesn't give a shit about the "little guy." 3. Dynos don't mean shit to factory race teams. You can take your "super coils" and fuck off. Well at least you guys came off more professional then I did... I will tell them, no go on the Takai stuff for banshee... Good day Edited December 23, 2011 by Takai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takai Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) In case you wanted to know, my name is Tyler. I own and operate BansheeHQ.com, the world's largest Banshee website. I will definitely let as many people a I can know what kind of company Takai is and how our support means dick to them. lol sorry you took the post in the wrong frame of mind. That is your issue not mine. If you call up Mclaren Electronics, they will tell you the same thing and would probably do even less to help you. It's all perspective. Just because your concerned about cost and making a product suit YOUR needs, it DOESN'T mean that is Takai's initiative. Like I said, call up WeaponX, they will cater to your requests. Sorry Takai doesn't put the small guy first, it isn't part of the company policy, but Takai does what it can and shares team level equipment with the general public. Like I said, if you want budget then elsewhere is where to go. Anyway, say what you want and believe what you will, I'm sorry Takai doesn't put you first in the relationship. You can take that as, "I'm an ass", or, that is the truth I need to deal with and accept there are other more important projects over an old, platform. Its not because Takai dislikes the banshee, it is because, in truth, it will never be used in professional racing again and that is the primary, and existing, Takai target. It has nothing to do with we don't care, and everything to do with, that is what we are told. You can accept that and be greatfull, call Magnetti Marelli and pray they help, or dislike it and go elsewhere. It's that simple. Sorry you don't like it. No bother for us not making a kit for the banshee, I have enough pull here to make it not happen which looks like a wise decision. To bad, you will never know what type of difference it makes. You can tell people what you think... and maybe in a few years, when everyone else is running the product because it works, stick your foot in your mouth to suit. While you are at it tell them your the reason banshee owners don't have a kit because if you don't I will and will send them your way to know what type of forum you operate in the same fashion you promote us. Edited December 23, 2011 by Takai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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